We follow up STRANGER BY THE LAKE with BLUE IS THE WARMEST COLOUR: a film that not only also came out in 2013, competed in the Cannes Film Festival the same year, but went on to win the Palme D'or. Look at us, being accidentally brilliant!
That train keeps chugging and by pure accidental bliss, we have another film up here with some stark similarities!
Would I go on to say this film is "controversial"? Probably. We have some issues with it. As you'll gather, we don't talk about the film much but rather the way the film was made. There's some questionable behavior happening here, and we're not a podcast to let that slide. The two leads however, Léa Seydoux and Adèle Exarchopoulos are exceptional. Honestly, they knock this film out of the park with the rather mediocre material they are given. It's a disappointing shame as this was adapted from the equally exceptional graphic novel by Jul Maroh.
This is mostly Ryan's opinion here, Laura thinks the film is pretty good despite our universal disapproval of the off-camera shenanigans. It's just the Director who needs to take a little look in the mirror honestly if any of these allegations are true. Let's hope not dude, because that's kinda messed up!
Laura: Well, hello there. Welcome to On the BiTTE, the podcast that uncovers full frontal male nudity in cinema. My name is Laura, and I'm joined by my co host, Ryan.
Laura: Bonjour. Oh, salut!
Ryan: Yeah. Uh, you know that means hello in French.
Laura: Oui. And, you know, the easiest way to answer commod Sava is just to say sava.
Ryan: Oh, uh, I see. Yeah, well, I'm not going to take the time to learn French. I'm not interested. But, uh, yeah, we are. Uh, we're back on the french train. We. We technically never came off the french train.
Laura: No, no. It's so weird that we didn't realize that we had picked two films. You know, we wanted to do some LGBTQ films this month, and we picked two films from 2013 that were both at Con. Uh, ₩1, the queer palm. This ₩1, the Palme Dor. This one, being blue, is the warmest color. The romantic drama, um, also called la vie d'Adele.
Ryan: Yep.
Laura: Um, yeah, so, I.
Ryan: It's a weird. Yeah, it's weird how it's kind of worked out this way.
Laura: I think it's great. It's a beautiful accident. Um, yeah, I learned a lot more about this film than I.
Ryan: You wanted to, maybe. Yeah.
Laura: It's troubling. We'll get into it. But how much strife and trouble was going on during the production, that. That doesn't necessarily translate on the screen. You would know. And I think that that's a testament to the actors.
Ryan: Yeah. I mean, I'm gonna just preface this as that. I think there are severe issues with this film.
Laura: Cool. So, Blue is the Warmest Color, like I said, came out in 2013. And. Pardon, this is gonna be rough. Lea Seydoux. That's fine. She plays Emma. Adèle Exarchopoulos. Nope. That's bad. Exarchopoulos. Yeah. Maybe she plays Adele. She gets to play her own name either way.
Ryan: Yeah, I find that weird. Well, I'm. Yeah, well, I've. I'm. Yeah, we're gonna. Yeah, we're gonna. We're gonna correlate.
Laura: Those are the only two people that matter, really, necessarily, in this film. But also, Salim Kechiouche, plays Samir, and Jérémie Laheurte is Thomas, which we don't see. We don't see either of those boys very much.
Ryan: Um, yeah, we don't see an awful lot of the boys in this movie, which is perfectly fine, because, obviously, we're dealing with the other side this time. Last time, it was the boys. Now it's the girls.
Laura: It's the girls. It's the girls. Um, I don't know if it's fortunate or unfortunate or maybe it doesn't matter at all. Uh, maybe it just matters that the director isn't cast in a great light, uh, post production. But, um, abdelatif, um, keshish is the director of this film.
Ryan: Um, that's how it's said. Abdelatif, um, Abdellatif Kechiche. Okay.
Laura: Yeah, I'm doing my best.
Ryan: Yeah. Do you want me to, do you want me to talk about him?
Laura: I want you to talk about him, but I'm gonna drop the synopsis right at the top just so we don't lose it.
Ryan: Okay? Okay.
Laura: Pulled from Letterboxd thank you very much. Adele's life has changed when she meets Emma, um, a young woman with blue hair who will allow her to discover desire to assert herself as a woman and as an adult in front of others. Adele grows, seeks herself, loses herself, finds herself.
Ryan: Yeah. You know what, as synopsis go, that's maybe one of the good ones.
Laura: It is, because it doesn't give you too much. You know, you're going on a journey. You don't know unless you look it up. You're going on a three hour journey, which I did not know until we were about to sit down and watch this film.
Ryan: Yeah, I almost, yeah, I was almost sick. Like, this is the second longest film we've done on the podcast. Easily, easily, because the longest one we did was almost 4 hours. And that was, uh, at play in the fields of the Lord.
Laura: Yes.
Ryan: Which is actually a far better film than this, in my opinion.
Laura: Don't necessarily agree. This is very different. But yeah, go, uh, on. Tell
00:05:00
Laura: us about the director.
Ryan: So let's talk about the filmmaker. Um, Abdullah Abd del Atif Keshich is a, ah, tunisian french film director, screenwriter and actor. Um, he's been awarded what we. He said, wait. And I'm like, okay, no, I'm usually never. Well, I'm usually never wrong. Okay, so he was award. He's been awarded several times at the Caesar awards and he won the Palme Dor for blue is the warmest colour. And just to kind of like, hang on this point a little bit, because we did stranger by the lake. Why the fuck did that not just win the Palme door? And this was maybe nominated for the queer palm or something.
Laura: I genuinely do not know.
Ryan: Like, was 2013 just a year where they were just striving for mediocrity? Like, it was it just that sort of year?
Laura: It was a very interesting year in France. At least, you know, there was a lot of strikes and protests going on. Maybe not strikes, but protests about rights, about gay rights and gay marriage and stuff at the time, so. And then the having a lot of queer cinema come out at that time. I wouldn't be surprised. I'm not surprised. You know, you gotta fight back, I guess, against the bullshit.
Ryan: But then this is the one you champion.
Laura: I don't know what else came out that year. I didn't see everything that was at.
Ryan: Star Stranger by the late game out and ah, that's better anyway, right? Okay. Okay. Okay. Anyway, let's just get back to his filmography. We'll get through this quickly. Um, so his films, um, it's not a massive. It's not a massive filmography. There are big gaps in between these films, though.
Laura: Not, um, surprised.
Ryan: So in 2001 he has a uh, poetical refugee. In 2003 has games of love and chance. In 2007 he has the secret of the, um. I thought it said curtain, but I think it's the secret of the green. I've got funny lettering where it's just like. I don't like the pen, leave the paper. So everything ends up turning into one big squiggle.
Laura: Green.
Ryan: Uh, in 2010 it's black Venus, in 2013 we have obviously Blue is the warmest color. And then in 2017 and 2019 it's like two back to back. It seems like they're films that kind of follow each other because they have the same title but they have certain uh, subtitles that are different. So it's called McTobe my love canto, uh, inu in 2017 and then Intermiso in 2019. And also we can't avoid not talking about, ah, the fact that he was accused of sexual assault. Assault, that's what it said on the Wikipedia now obviously source, the good old Wikipedia because it's user generated, we can't base it on that. But the paragraph on there is incredibly short to the point where it's like he was accused but due to lack of evidence they didn't pursue it. Um, there's also kind of other certain things as well because certainly if you look at blue as the warmest colour on letterbox for like a Palme door winner, it's rated quite low. It's got like a 3.3 or something like that. And the top ratings are all half stars or just one star.
Laura: The top reviews, yeah, all the top.
Ryan: Reviews and they kind of focus on a few. A few things. And I'm kind of. I'm m getting this out the way because I think it's. I do think it's important, and, uh, I do think it's.
Laura: You can say you're getting it out of the way, but to be fair, a lot of the information I have is about the production.
Ryan: Oh, well, hold on to your butts.
Laura: So, um.
Ryan: Yeah, so it does have low. It does have a low letterbox rating for as lauded as it is. Um, but, you know, they have, like, people have issues with the movie for, like, its depictions of a lesbian relationship, for the. Quite. The quite arduous sex scenes. Um, and certainly for me personally, is that I struggle to see the correlation between this director and his need to tell this very particular story. And I'm kind of, like. I'm hoping that you'll shed some light on this a little bit, because I kind of feel like if this was in the hands of, say, someone who cared a little bit more about the material, I think the film would be far, far, far better than it is. Um, okay, well, uh, yeah, let's get into this.
Laura: I don't really have a lot of answers for you in terms of why did this director get attached to this film? Why is this a story that he felt like he wanted to tell? Why was it such a crazy production? Why do these actors never want to work with him again? Um, I know that I have answers to that, but why he wanted to tell the story, I don't know.
Ryan: I guess because of the information that we have, and it's relatively. Quite scant. Plus, I'm not really that, ah, interested in diving into the allegations and stuff. I think the fact that they're even there, um, is obviously a red flag, uh, funnily enough. But, um, yeah, I'm just. It does. It concerns me when you see things like that and then you have a film like this with a story that I feel is quite personal and it's quite sensitive.
Laura: Absolutely.
Ryan: Um, and it feels from just, like, finishing the other half of the movie today, uh, it's so, like, for. It's so ironic that I say that the film feels quite cold and sterile. Like, that's what I get from it.
Laura: Okay, interesting. Well, let's. Let's just rewind a little bit. Let's rewind a little bit. Um. Um, I'm gonna. Okay. All right, I'm back. I'm gonna start. I'm gonna start somewhere else.
Ryan: You know, what we do generally is that you drive the ship, and I just make the jokes.
Laura: Oh, boy. Okay. Yeah.
Ryan: I don't know if I'll be making many jokes today.
Laura: Okay. The film is based off of a comic book called le bleu est une couleur chaud. Um, it's also called Blue angel by Jules Marot, which you started reading today.
Ryan: I did. I got 40 pages into it because, um, I only got. Yeah, I just got my library app working.
Laura: Um, go to your local library.
Ryan: You should go to your local library. Ah, it's a very. So far, it's very good. It's only 160 pages. Like, I'll finish it within the next hour. Um, but it's, uh.
Laura: Please wait until after we finish.
Ryan: Even within the first ten pages. It is, it's engaging and it has a, it has a really, has a really nice premise. It's very sad. There are, there are some relations to the adaption and in some small ways, but like, the, like many adaptions, like the fuck. The fucking blueprint is there, like, to use. I have no idea why they did not just do a straight adaptation, the book into a film form. Um, I just don't, I don't understand because it. Even within the first, like, few pages, it is so much more heartfelt than what the film becomes.
Laura: So it is in, it's basically in two parts, I would say. You don't necessarily know the time jump within the film. So you do start off with a young Adele who is working through her self and her life and figuring out, why am I not so interested in men? Is it just this man? Is it all of them? And she meets a woman who kind of opens up her life and her experiences. Right. And then you get a jump. You're not really quite sure of the jump, how long it is, but, you know, but you see her a little bit older. She has a career. She's living without Emma. Um, the film is also called the life of Adele. Chapters one and two.
Ryan: Yeah, it feels like an odyssey.
Laura: So you do get on a very classical sense span of time, of this woman's life to try and just kind of follow her and her decisions and discovering herself.
Ryan: Um, which is a different, is a different, is a thing that it does differently than the book. The book has, like, a dual perspective going on in that it. It focuses more on Emma as she's older, reading the diaries of. And her name's not Adele in the book, it's Clementine.
Laura: Yeah.
Ryan: So. And there's kind of a greater idea because obviously the colour blue is also a very kind of, uh, prominent, prominent colour in the book and in the painting of the book because it's mostly, uh, it's just a, it's watercolored, finished off with, uh, with pencil. At, uh, least that's what it looks like to me, anyway. Um, so there's a. There's a greater use of colour. Um, not to say that I don't think the film is
00:15:00
Ryan: particularly. Is shot poorly or anything. I think it does. It does look quite nice. Um, but it's really one of those. It's a hand. It's a handheld realism movie. There's at no point anything other than the camera's just handheld off the sticks. Just.
Laura: Yeah.
Ryan: Telling the story, so to speak.
Laura: So the film was originally planned to be shot in two and a half months. It took five and a half months.
Ryan: Jesus Christ.
Laura: The director shot at least 750 Hour worth of footage. Okay.
Ryan: Okay. So we're getting into it. We're getting into the nightmare.
Laura: There we go. Yeah.
Ryan: Okay.
Laura: I have, you know, I've got a lot. I've got a lot of information, so.
Ryan: That doesn't sound that bad to me.
Laura: Okay.
Ryan: Certainly from the directors that I, like, admired over my time. Cause certainly if, like, yeah, if, like, if Fincher's. Fincher's out there doing 40 takes at a time, he's. Well, obviously Fincher is Fincher. This guy. We're gonna find out.
Laura: Well, I mean, even this director was saying, you know, Charlie Chaplin was out there getting 100, 110 takes. He goes, I'm nowhere near that bad. So there was an interview with both, uh, Leah and Adele, and they were asked if they had a lot of trust in the director. And Leah said, the thing is, in France, it's not like in the States. The director has all the power. When you're an actor on a film in France and you sign the contract, in a way, you're trapped. And Adele said, he warned us that we had to trust him. Blind trust. He wanted us to have sex scenes, but without choreography. More like special sex scenes. He told us he didn't want us to hide the character's sexuality because it's an important part of every relationship. So he asked me if I was ready to make it. And I said, yeah, of course, because I'm young and I'm pretty new to cinema. But once we were on the shoot, I realized that he really wanted us to give him everything. Most people don't even dare to ask the things that he did, and they're more respectful. You get reassured during sex scenes, and they're choreographed, which desexualizes the act.
Ryan: Yeah.
Laura: Right.
Ryan: Yeah, it does. Because that's where. That's where the fine balance comes in, where you're you know, the idea of a performance, quote unquote, is, uh. Yeah. You're not. You're not understanding that these people are actually doing exactly what they're doing.
Laura: Right.
Ryan: You know, you can make the distinction.
Laura: There was also an interview where the director was asked if he considers himself difficult as a director. And he responded, I certainly don't consider myself difficult. I consider myself creative. I consider myself demanding. But I would never be aggressive or in any way violent on a set. Um, I mean, it's good that he.
Ryan: Makes that distinction, you know. I mean, there's been plenty of times we've. We've had, like, director stories of people. I mean, William Friedkin being the. Being probably one of the most criminal, uh, film directors of all time. Um, yeah, but there's certainly elements of that. It's kind of. It's so outlandish. Like it's so pantomime at that point. It's kind of, it blurs the line between, um. Like. Like the purpose of this. Or, you know, like if you did it a different way, like, if you took a softly approach to it, as opposed to, like, can I get the same reaction out of this actor instead of firing off a gun that they didn't know I had?
Laura: Right.
Ryan: You know what I mean? Like, it's. There's a line that gets blurred there. Like, how far will you push it to get what you think is the desired reaction?
Laura: The story, you know, is you see it a lot more in the third act of the film where you have Adele, who's more of the working class person in the relationship, trying to adapt the life of Emma, who's more middle class. She's an artist. She's starting to get a lot more recognition with her art. And the director was asked if he was also part of the class dynamics while working with Leah Seydoux for months and months and, uh, months. And he goes, if I were to respond to this, I'd be very nasty. And actually, Leah has not had that much experience as an actress. She has a lot to learn. So, um, yeah, there's a lot going on there where it seems as though both the director and the actors in the film are just trying to keep it together just to get this film out. Because there's so much strife
00:20:00
Laura: and so much anger and frustration between everybody that once the film got out, they were just so happy to have it out and gone and, uh, away so that they could move on with their lives. Because the actors weren't able to see their family and friends, the filming took more than twice as long as they were expecting, Leah, uh, Seydoux would sneak away to go see her friends and family, uh, even though she wasn't, you know, allowed to, quote unquote. So they were basically almost imprisoned in a weird way.
Ryan: Right. And that's not indicative of french film productions though, is it? It's just indicative of this man's production.
Laura: Correct.
Ryan: Right. That is eye opening.
Laura: Yeah.
Ryan: Um, yeah, no, for a film that's like. It's effectively about uh. Like it's an odyssey about. About a relationship. Like a woman's. Like a young woman's like sexual awakening.
Laura: And also her first love.
Ryan: Yeah. Her first true love. Yeah.
Laura: Ah, it's really just a story about your first love and how that doesn't always and hopefully doesn't always work out because you need more than just your first love. This girl is in high school.
Ryan: Uh.
Laura: When she meets Emma. And you have in real time between these actors an eight year age gap, which is about what it is in the film as well with their characters. So you have about that much of a gap in their age. So you have a much older woman, you, uh, know, with a girl who's what, 1617 not allowed to drink m and she's going out to bars.
Ryan: Yeah. Well, it is France though. It's kind of slightly different.
Laura: Well, yeah, it's different culturally, but still the legal drinking age is 18, so to go out to bars you have to be 18 to drink at home and, and stuff. It's very different.
Ryan: But, yeah, yeah, um. Yeah, it's very different. I mean, there is, there are elements of the. Yeah, the stuff that you don't really see because again, like the book itself, like it. It falls into those, those trappings is it's like it's a liter, like a literary piece of work. So it's a little bit more wordy. You're able to kind of getting to the head of the characters and you're able to kind of figure out the intricacies of like what they're thinking because they're literally speaking their mind in the book. Obviously, in the case of the film, there's no voiceover. It doesn't really do any sort of direct adaptation from that. But there are elements in the book where when she starts to have thoughts and feelings of like being certainly with Emma, uh, because Emma is this kind of unicorn who she sees passing, um. Um, in the town square and it starts to like haunt her mind and her dreams and her. It stirs things up inside her, um, that, that she didn't feel before and that she never felt like she could, uh, she could, uh, uh, you know, um, uh, articulate. Yeah. Or like, explore. Because there are very literal moments in the book where she's just like, it feels very unnatural to me to not like boys. And it feels weird that I like girls.
Laura: It's very touching and very emotional and upsetting and sad just to see this young woman very confused and doesn't feel right in her body and doesn't feel right because you do have those cultural pressures, you know, even with her family. And it's not like her family is trying to make her feel bad. They don't know. And it's just how they were raised. You grow up, you get a boyfriend, you get married, the man supports you, etcetera. So with her not understanding why she doesn't enjoy having sex with boys and feeling these feelings towards girls and just seeing her struggle with that and just crying, it's very sad. Um, but it's nice to have her meet Emma and to get to explore that, that side.
Ryan: There's a lot of big, like, good for her kind of moments, um, where, you know, you feel like she's kind of sussed it. Sussed it out. Uh, but she does have to keep it a secret.
Laura: There's that first time where Adele sees Emma and there's that steel drum that's being played in the background. And I would hope that every time she thought about Emma, she, ah, would hear that steel drum.
Ryan: I mean, if, if it, I mean, I think it does.
Laura: Because the music of
00:25:00
Laura: her.
Ryan: Yeah, the steel drum. Yeah, the steel drum plays, um, at the very end of the movie it does, um. The one, the one, yeah, the one of the biggest things that I feel like, I don't know why they didn't, they didn't care. But there's a, there's some, there's some lovely lines put in the book where blue is the warmest color actually comes from. Um, and obviously the book was originally called Blue angel. Um, yeah.
Laura: Uh, so that steel drum scene, the first time that these two characters see each other, that scene took over 100 takes, by the way. And by the end of it, apparently the director burst into a rage because after 100 takes, Leia Sidou walks by Adele and she laughs because she'd been walking by each time doing this kind of stare down between each other. And he got so enraged that he picked up the little monitor that he was kind of viewing the scene from. He threw it into the street and he screamed. I can't work under these conditions. What mhm yeah, he was annoyed that he wasn't getting exactly what he wanted, but without articulating exactly what he wanted. So then he just got pissed off and threw equipment into the street.
Ryan: Yeah, I mean, well, here's the thing. It's one of the pivotal moments in the film, but like, when you watch it, I don't know what you get from that. For a hundred takes, we're not enough. Yeah, but we're not talking about a film that's like, like technically at least, like visually, like a complicated film. Like, it's very, um. I don't use the word simple, but like, it tells the story. Like, at no point is the camera on a set of sticks. It's a, uh, dude, it's someone, it is an operator following these people around. And it all, it felt to me personally that it was shot incredibly quickly, but then they were also allowed to give the actors a lot of time to, I guess, get very comfortable with the material, get comfortable in the environments, and kind of really process the, um, um, like the material. But from what you're saying, it sounds like they just fucking. He's just a megalomaniac. But yeah, he's acting like a megalomaniac. And I don't think that sort of behavior is welcome, like, in this day and age, certainly not in a, not in our modern film industry. And, you know, again, it just makes me hearken back to the fact that, like, well, like, do you produce better films eliciting an attitude or behaviors like this? And I'm not 100% sure you can still make a good film and not fucking tip over a tip over a t cart in order to do that. You know, like, you don't have to do that.
Laura: Not have people hate you forever.
Ryan: Or in the case of, like, you know, breaking fucking Ellen Bernstein's hip, like, it doesn't. Or coccyx. Sorry. Yeah.
Laura: Uh, I don't think that it's a great way to treat people, but, uh, it is interesting that despite the amount of strife and nonsense on set, over 150 Hour worth of footage, that you still have a really, I believe, a touching story. So I know you might not totally agree with me, but I think it was, there was a lot of it that was really quite touching for me.
Ryan: I think there's some nice, I think there's some nice stuff in it, but the problem is, is that it's kind of overshadowed by the gratuitousness of it.
Laura: Okay.
Ryan: Which I don't think is necessary in any way, shape or form to help tell this story.
Laura: So this is maybe a good point to jump into the only penis scene in this film, which I think.
Ryan: Well, I think it's important. Like, I think this moment has to happen.
Laura: Yes.
Ryan: Um, you know, because she has to come to the realization that this is just. It's just not. It's just not for her.
Laura: So this scene happens 22 minutes and 50 seconds into the film, into this three hour odyssey.
Ryan: Yeah.
Laura: So this is just after she. After Adele has a sexy wet dream about Emma, after their first kind of visual encounter with each other in the streets, after the steel drum moment where there is a guy from school called Thomas, and
00:30:00
Laura: all of Adele's friends are saying, he likes you. You like him. Have you slept with him yet? And they'd gone out and had a smooch and went to the movies.
Ryan: She has some pretty horrid friends.
Laura: They're very pushy. Very.
Ryan: Yeah.
Laura: Uh, very nosy. Incredibly nosy. But they're not as terrible yet as they become.
Ryan: No.
Laura: At least at this point. So their sex scene happens, like I said, after she has kind of this wet dream about. About Emma, but they had gone out, Adele and Thomas. And I believe this is the first time they have sex. At least it's the first time that we know that they're having sex. And so you do get a glimpse there, and it's just, uh, an awkward kind of struggle for her. You could tell during the time that they're having sex together where she just is not into it and she's not feeling it. And he kind of keeps asking her, are you okay? Are you into this? And she has to just reassure him because otherwise it's really awkward. It's just quite a sad moment because from that moment after she has sex with Thomas, you can see the struggle that she's having with her own sexuality. She's not sure why she doesn't like this. Uh, she doesn't know where to go from there. And she's having a really hard time with her awkward friends who are being very pushy, being very pestering about her, asking over and over and over again, like, did you have sex with him? How was it? And there you end up having that time where she goes to the gay bar with her friend.
Ryan: Yeah.
Laura: Where she actually gets, you know, afterwards. She goes to a, uh, lesbian bar, and she, uh, actually meets Emma for the first time.
Ryan: Yeah. I just. I don't know. Like, maybe I'm misremembering that sex scene because he rolls over. It's an erection that we see. Um, yes. I feel like, I'm misremembering. Cause I, like, I don't know if I get that from that sex scene. Yeah, you get that stuff, like afterwards where, you know, she has to come to terms with it. And it's after she has sex with him that she's like, I can't be.
Laura: With him anymore because she knows she's not into it. I did feel. And you're not quite sure in the moment when they're having sex, is it because he's a, uh, bad lover? Is it because he's bad in bed? Or is it because she's just not into it? That's. That's kind of where I was.
Ryan: The sex scene itself. Because, again, like, the film is so kind of. It's. It's. It's drawn out. Uh, personally, I feel like it's padded a lot. Like, scenes go on for far longer than they, they ever need to. But the problem is, is, like, with that sex scene, like, what you're saying there, I don't know if I get that from it. Like, I don't think I get the fact that she's having an uncomfortable time or that she's having a bad time. I'm kind of. I'm like. I'm a little bit like. Well, like, for me personally, there's a. Well, the bit in the book is slightly different. You don't see them have sex in the book, but they've obviously, in the book, they very nearly have sex, but she just can't go through with it. And he's willing to like, you know, pump the brakes and take the time and, you know, he's going out with a girl who's, you know, a little bit younger in the book. She's a sophomore, he's a senior. I think it's the same in the film as well, you know? So he's willing. He's a nice person willing to take the time to do it into this, and he doesn't fully understand why she's not into him as much as he's into her.
Laura: Well, it's similar. It's very similar, except that they actually do the deed in the film.
Ryan: Yeah. I just don't know if I like that. Like, I just. I don't. I just don't think, like, I think it's an important moment to have in this, this filmic adaption, but for as extraneous as it is, like, for as much as you see, I'm like Jesus fucking in Christ. Like, I don't get. I don't get that level of involvement from, like, what you just said there. It's the scenes that, like, that come afterwards that then basically explain all of that stuff to you.
Laura: It's pretty. I don't know. That's fine. It's pretty obvious to me in terms of where she's going in her story. I feel
00:35:00
Laura: like he asks her in that moment, are you okay? Are you into this?
Ryan: He does, yeah, but it sounds pretty.
Laura: Clear that she's not.
Ryan: It's after it's all finished, though, you know, it's like, it's the part of the scene. I'm like, do we fucking need that? And the thing is, if it wasn't in the film, again, I've said this before. We wouldn't be talking about it. So it's kind of one of those things. It's a bit of a double edged sword.
Laura: It's like, well, that's why we're here. We're here to figure out, is this necessary? But I think what we're gonna end up talking about more is whether or not the rest of the sex scenes are necessary that don't have a penis in them.
Ryan: The rest of the sex scenes, as much as I think at least one of the first ones, I think is fine. They're way too long, and they're just way too detailed. Like, there's just no. There's no need to take it that far. Cause it gets into, like, nine songs territory where it's just like. Because, like, you get to the point where you're listening to it and you're watching it for so long, you're just like, I have to turn the tv down.
Laura: One of those. It's one of those moments where I'm glad I wasn't listening to it on my headphones because I would have been very uncomfortable. But the first time. So we can. We'll move out. We'll move away from the penis. We'll move into the labia. How about that?
Ryan: Okay, so labia. Right. Okay.
Laura: We'll move right into it.
Ryan: Just say the vagina. We don't have to, like. You don't have to, like, cut up the vagina into parts.
Laura: I do. Because molds of their labias were created for these sex scenes.
Ryan: What? What are you talking about?
Laura: I'm talking about. Well, where.
Ryan: Where were those mo. Wait, where were those molds? Uh, when they go down on each other and stuff?
Laura: Yeah.
Ryan: Oh, and they put them on top.
Laura: Yes.
Ryan: Looked relatively quite seamless, if that.
Laura: Because they. They go to town on each other. This is about a ten minute sex team. This is the first time that they are intimate with each other, and I'm talking about Adele and Emma, and this is also Adele's first sexual experience with another woman.
Ryan: Yeah.
Laura: And they really, really go for it. And, uh, it's. The lights are on, they're naked, they're upside down, they're this way, that way. So, yeah, they had. They had prosthetics made for this particular scene. That scene took. That first sex scene took ten days to shoot.
Ryan: Fuck that.
Laura: Which I don't know why you're surprised. Because of how crazy this production is.
Ryan: Yeah, fuck that. Like, that's fucking insane. Like, that's. That's, like, beyond. Like, I, uh, just how does that content help the story?
Laura: So there's also a lot of controversy in terms of the gaze in this film because you.
Ryan: Oh, the G a Z E. Yeah.
Laura: And not the g A y s. Yeah.
Ryan: I was gonna say, I was like, if you've got a problem with that.
Laura: Then, because a lot of people are talking that there's a heavy male gaze.
Ryan: Oh, that film. Yeah. That's like, that's plain as day, but it's.
Laura: It's kind of hard because it. I don't know. It's a movie about.
Ryan: I mean, we just watched a movie called am I okay? That was directed by, um. I don't know if it's. If it's, uh, two gay directors, but one of them's definitely gay. Okay.
Laura: Yes.
Ryan: And that movie is relatively. Is relatively tame, but, like, you don't need. You don't need. Yeah, you don't need to see, like, Dakota Johnson going to the extent that these actresses are put through for blue is the warmest color in that movie. Like, you get it. You know, I mean, it's a shame that, like, am I okay? Is relatively quite formulaic and very predictable, but, like, it doesn't need to go that far.
Laura: But then you have that conversation about, why can't we show these things? And are we exploiting these people by showing this much sex, or are we shielding audiences from not showing enough? Because sex is a part of life in humanity. Right. So what is the harm in showing too much sex? Like, what's the breaking point? I don't know.
Ryan: I think for me. Right, okay, you go first.
Laura: This does go too long. This particular scene that I'm talking about, this ten minute sex scene. So there was actually an article where they asked lesbians to react to this film's sex scenes. Some of the comments included things like, it was really
00:40:00
Laura: geometric. Another one was the scissoring wish it could happen. Never has happened once in human history. I'd rather go lick a Baskin Robbins ice cream cone.
Ryan: Huh.
Laura: So maybe. Maybe they're right. Maybe there is too much male gaze in this particular film. And you. It's hard to blame the director completely because. Well, no, it's not hard to blame him completely.
Ryan: You can't. I mean, don't get yourself in a position where you're gonna start blaming the actors for what they do.
Laura: No, I'm not. I'm not blaming the actors at all. And I'm not. But the actors did defend the director and said that it would have been this way even if it was a female director. So it doesn't matter if it's a male or a female director that's coming from the actors. And it is, I guess, upon us to decide whether or not it's too heavy of a male gaze, not enough of a female gaze. But it's a lot. The sex scenes are a lot.
Ryan: Yeah.
Laura: This one in particular, the first one.
Ryan: My whole thing is kind of like, because we do. Because we do visibility in context for me personally, like, a sex scene has to substantiate an emotional weight that helps to drive the story forward. Like, you want that moment in your story to have real emotional weight because you're witnessing a very private, intimate moment between two characters who are coming together and they're sharing a very personal, intimate moment.
Laura: I think this does have weight. This is a huge moment for Adele.
Ryan: It does. But there are moments in the film that are non sexual that I think hold more weight because there's that moment of them on the bench. And I think that scene itself, again, that goes far too fucking long. That, like, just. It does a better job than the sex stuff does.
Laura: I think that's hard. That's. That's difficult. Because then we get into a territory where we don't think that sex scenes are necessary. And I disagree.
Ryan: Well, I disagree with that as well because I don't think that's true. But what I do feel like is that when you, let's say you put all of the elements of this. You put all of the story, you put all of the production, you put the actors, you put the director, you put it all into, like, a bucket and you shake it all up and then you spill it all out. To me, personally, it doesn't add up. There are parts of this where I'm just like. It feels. It's a little disingenuous. I feel like it's slightly misleading. I feel like it does a disservice not only to, you know, to real time, uh, like, people who have dealt with this. This strife in their own lives. I feel like it's disingenuous and it's. It's a little bit. Yeah, it just. It feels. It feels untrue to me. Like, I don't. I don't like it. I don't like where this person is taking it.
Laura: I don't know. I don't know. I am excited that a director. And it's the same with, um, the director of Stranger by, like, Alan Girardi, where he goes, I want there to be sex in this movie. We have to show the eroticism and the. He didn't say eroticism, but it's a part of life. We're going to show it. And this is what it's about. And this is what this is about as well. You have people coming of age, one person coming of age and learning about their sexuality. So to not have this in the film would be problematic.
Ryan: That's fine. But I think it's all there.
Laura: But I don't disagree with you either, though, that it's a bit more.
Ryan: It comes down to framing, like, how you put it together.
Laura: It's a bit much.
Ryan: I don't feel weirded out by the stuff that happens in stranger by the lake. I'm just like, fuck, yeah, here we go. Like, this is kind of like, there's, like, varying spectrums here. Like, there's nine songs that I think is one on one end of the spectrum, quite negatively. And then you have other scenes say, like, I don't know, to live and die in LA, which is kind of. It feels a little bit more like fun. And in this, it just. It's like, yeah, like, it kind of tears more on the negative just because if again, like, how long it goes and, like, where the camera takes you, and it's like, I'm like, yeah, I don't know if I need to see a lot of this because, uh, by length, it doesn't necessarily mean it's more emotional. It just means it's just. It's just.
00:45:00
Ryan: It's. It's.
Laura: I also don't want to just.
Ryan: It needs to justify its existence for longer if it does that.
Laura: I also didn't want to sit there for ten straight minutes and watch that go on because it was a lot. And there's. There's several scenes. There's several sex scenes between these two characters.
Ryan: Yeah.
Laura: So I don't know why the first one had to be ten minutes long. Uh, I don't know why? I don't, I don't know.
Ryan: Yeah, I think, like, you get yourself into a slightly sticky situation when, you know, we really break it down and we really think about it and stuff like that. But for me, like, I don't want to say it's like lazy storytelling because you need that sexual element in this. Because her journey, uh, is a kind of sexual awakening. Like, it's a sexual journey. And for her, sex is very important. And we do find that out through the course of the story that sex, for her is, it's a very important, integral part of her, of her existence. But, yeah, I do think it comes down to framing. And then when we look at, like, the other parts of the production, it does, it does put into kind of stark contrast. Like, uh, like, it makes you question, like, the intent and, you know, like, the tone of, like, these scenes in the movie where you're like, I don't.
Laura: Know, like when Leah Seydoux said that, in a way, they were trapped, and then, uh, Adele said that we had to follow him blindly because he wanted special sex scenes. Yeah, no, it is weird, because it's.
Ryan: Like, it's a weird image in your head. It's like you've got your director and you've got, because it'd be closed set situations. You know, you've got your toot, you've got your actors there's doing what they're doing. You've got your director watching the whole thing, and you've got your person operating the camera, someone operating the sound, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. But then imagine watching that for ten straight days.
Laura: This is also pre intimacy coordinators here, so it's gonna be difficult. And it was. And not to say that the actor said that this was the most difficult thing to, to shoot. The whole production itself was difficult.
Ryan: Yeah.
Laura: So they don't, they never pointed out that particular one as the worst part.
Ryan: Yeah.
Laura: But the whole production itself is filled.
Ryan: With troubles, I think. Yeah. I just think that just on that basis alone, like, it makes you ask a whole bunch of questions. Because certainly to me, at least personally, to me, the film is subpar.
Laura: Okay. All right. So let's move on. Let's move on from here, away from the hate, and we'll, I'm not hating.
Ryan: I'm just, I'm trying to find justification for some of the, some of the choices I feel are being made here.
Laura: Okay?
Ryan: That's all. Because here's the thing. It's not that I, like, I don't hate this movie. I'm just disappointed.
Laura: Okay, what about. I'm gonna bring up one thing that doesn't have anything to do with sex, necessarily. What about all the food? The food I wrote down. I don't know if you noticed this. I would be surprised if you didn't. The amount of eating that happens in this film.
Ryan: It's french.
Laura: The amount of pasta.
Ryan: Yeah. She makes a lot of spaghetti. Yeah, no, that's a, uh. I don't know. Like, I didn't. I mean, to me, like that. To me, it felt. It felt very genuine. Like, the idea of, like, food and coming together and stuff.
Laura: Wraps, potatoes, candy bars under the bed, loose meats in the park. And then you had the pasta party. The pasta party. How many close ups of people eating pasta and they had pasta sauce all over their faces?
Ryan: I mean, imagine if Brad Pitt was.
Laura: In this movie, eating it up. He'd be. He'd be satisfied.
Ryan: Yeah, he would.
Laura: Satisfied.
Ryan: He'd be bloated with pasta. Doing those pasta poops. I think, um. Yeah, no, I mean, I think it's. Yeah, I don't really question any of it.
Laura: Like, did you. Did you clock the movie that was playing during that pasta party?
Ryan: I saw in the background, but I didn't see enough of it, the black and white movie, to, like, distinguish what it was.
Laura: So that is a film called Pandora's Box by George Wilhelm Pabst.
Ryan: Okay.
Laura: So, uh, there is a scene in that film in particular where it was revealed that the character was a lesbian, which apparently created a big scandal when it came out in the 1920s. Okay, so that's why that was there.
Ryan: Yeah. Surprising.
Laura: Yeah, that's why that was there.
Ryan: Okay. Okay. Yeah.
Laura: Do you have anything else that you want to bring up
00:50:00
Laura: about the film? I've. I've got a little bit more, but I just.
Ryan: I'm like. I'm just a little bit. Yeah. I mean, the issue. There's. There's issues I have with just the telling of the story because I do think. I, uh, do think the film is just inherently sad.
Laura: Um, yeah, the tale is upsetting story, but then it's like any first love story where as a young person, you think that that love is going to last forever, but it typically doesn't. And then what kind of lessons do you learn from that? You have a call me by your name, which is similar, where you have a really intense flame between someone and, uh, someone who's a little bit older, and that love persists and that young person will have that love in their heart forever. Right. They'll never forget it because it's so. It's their first encounter with this type of relationship.
Ryan: But call me by your name. Like, that relationship is handled with such a level of grace and tenderness that.
Laura: Like, I don't think that this doesn't have that. I do think that their relationship does have a lot of love, and you can see the love that they have between each other in the film. In this film?
Ryan: Yeah. I mean, unless it's like, the beginnings are, like, Stockholm syndrome, and it's just like, you need to just.
Laura: No, I do think that she, they both care about each other by the.
Ryan: Production, not the story of the characters.
Laura: I mean, well, I'm trying to stick with this story. They do have a lot of love for each other, and it just didn't work out, and that's okay. And that's something that Adele, the character, will just have to grow from. What's interesting, though, is that when you get towards the end of the film and you have 3 Hour with these people, I was expecting a bit more of a resolution for Adele.
Ryan: The ending's terrible.
Laura: It's such a bummer.
Ryan: Yeah.
Laura: The ending's bad because you have their love story and you have their arc and you have their passion, and it comes to a head, and then once life gets in the way, I suppose, then you see it end, and that's okay. But then Emma is doing really well and has a relationship and has a family, if that's something that you can call a success. But her career is going really well, and then Adele is just walks away by herself.
Ryan: She's moved on from, well, here's the thing.
Laura: I just want to see more success.
Ryan: I don't like it. Their relationship is whatever it is by this point in the movie, and then she cheats on Emma, uh, with a dude. And then, understandably, Emma gets rid of her. But the thing is, it's like. And obviously, Emma moves on, and she does well with herself, and it's like you're like, okay. And then you kind of just see this crippled, like, husk of Adele just kind of parading herself around, who's just, like, incredibly guilty. And understandably, you know, she's made the mistake in her life, and it's just kind of the film ends with you thinking, well, she's, she's just gonna wander around with this element of guilt that's just gonna hound her for the rest of her days.
Laura: Hopefully, she's gotten over it. I think it's just sad.
Ryan: That's how it feels.
Laura: You never want to be the one in a relationship. That's the loser. You want to be the one that wins. And unfortunately, Adele's not the one that wins in this situation.
Ryan: But then you also don't have any sympathy for her either.
Laura: She did do a cheat.
Ryan: She fucking cheated on her.
Laura: She did a cheat. She lied and lied and lied.
Ryan: You're like, why the fuck did you do that? I'm, um, like, what can, you know, sat down. How do we chat first? I like, I don't, I don't.
Laura: Before you do it, cheat.
Ryan: Yeah, I don't really under it. And she's like, yeah, she's like, wooed by the fucking action film star. Um, and I'm like, that's not even.
Laura: The person that she does the cheat.
Ryan: With, though, is it not?
Laura: No, she does a cheat with her coworker.
Ryan: Oh, from the nursery school? Yeah. Uh, yeah.
Laura: They go out to a sexy club and it gets sexy, and then she.
Ryan: Gets two sexy, gets a little too sexy. She doesn't cheat.
Laura: She pulls a cheat. Does it hurt more because she cheated with a man, do you think?
Ryan: Probably, but, like, it's, it's, again, it's painful regardless.
00:55:00
Ryan: Yeah. And I just, I just don't like, I don't like it at that point either. And I don't like how there's no sense of, like, maybe there is or maybe it's just not particularly clear to me. Like, maybe, maybe there is a resolution from, uh, the filmmakers, um, point of view where they're, you know, they're like, yeah, no, this is like she sees all of the ghosts of her past at, uh, the exhibition. Right. And she's, she's finally, at that moment, able to move on because it's so far from her at that point. Maybe.
Laura: Yeah. I'm just glad she didn't end up with a man. Sexuality is a spectrum, you know? But I'm glad she didn't just walk away with a film star. I would have been annoyed. Well, she just, I'd rather her be by herself and try, because you have to know yourself, you have to love yourself and you have to be comfortable in your own skin in order to give love properly to other people. That's what I think. You have to be, uh, happy with yourself. And so hopefully that's the journey that our, that our Adele goes on at the end.
Ryan: It's still ambiguous, but I don't think it's ambiguous in, like, a good way.
Laura: Okay.
Ryan: Yeah.
Laura: I'm just like, okay, so let's, uh, let me. We already talked about how it won the pome door in 2013. This was also nominated for a Golden Globe, um, and a BAFTA for the best non english language film, but it lost to Paolo Sorrentino's the great beauty.
Ryan: Okay.
Laura: It did not win, but it did win the pomp d'or. And that's kind of all I have in terms of info. It's just a troubled production. I think the film came out pretty okay. I liked it. But I. Maybe we should give our ratings. What do you think? Um, yeah, let's go with you first, because I want to end it on a high note, and I feel like yours is going to be pretty low. So let's go. Let's go with you first. Right.
Ryan: I just think it's kind of disappointing. I think it's like. It's like you kind of. You spend all that time making a movie, and it's so troubled and full of strife that you've just created out of fucking nothing, and then it's like, oh, it's mediocre.
Laura: All right, go on. Well, here's ability in context. Let's go for it.
Ryan: Um, I mean, I like the context. Like, she has to. Well, yeah. Do I like the context? Um. Do I enjoy the context? Do I enjoy watching these teenagers have complicated sex. Have complicated emotional sex with each other? Um, contextually? Like, I mean, it makes sense in the narrative that this has to happen because she has to have a turning point where it's uncomfortable for her to be with men, and then this is obviously the springboard that catapults her into, uh.
Laura: Uh, self discovery.
Ryan: Yeah, self discovery of her. Uh, yeah. And, uh, yeah, I think that's fine. So, contextually, that works for me. So I'd maybe give it, like, a four. And then visibility, obviously, you know, you see a boner, it's all there. I'd say about three. So, I mean, I'm gonna give it. Give it a three and a half. Visibility, context wise, I think it has to be there in order for certain other elements of the story to, you know, to obviously make sense. Um, but, yeah, I do. I do think, like, the sex scenes are just a little bit. They're just a little bit long and gratuitous for no real good reason.
Laura: For me, in terms of visibility and context, I also gave it a three and a half, because with the amount. The sheer amount of female nudity in this film, and maybe people are correct that the male gaze is a bit strong.
Ryan: I would say so.
Laura: And maybe it's not fair enough, but it's nice that there's a penis in there. I like her journey. She's, uh, got to try things and she doesn't like it. But I think that it's nice that it's there just to give a little bit of balance. I mean, the scale is tipped hard.
Ryan: The scale is tipped incredibly hard. It's ridiculously hard, but, uh, it's an integral. It's an integral element, I think, that needs to be told.
Laura: It's an important moment in her journey. Yes, for film, Ryan.
Ryan: So out of sheer disappointment, and because I do like, to me, it feels quite cold and a little sterile and it's way too long. Like, it's just. It does not substantiate its length. Um, feel. And I gave it two because there are certain elements of it. I do like the way it looks. I do like its realism.
01:00:00
Ryan: There's some really nice performances from the two central characters. That's the one thing I will say, is that under the circumstances, they do give some fantastic performances. And I do. I do like elements of the adaptation where we focus more on Adele, who obviously, in the book is called Clementine. And obviously Emma is less so an integral part of the narrative. And much as she's there, then she's not there, then she comes back, and then she's not really there again in the book. She's got a much bigger role in the story. Um, but, yeah, it's. For me, there's elements of this film which make me feel a little bit icky, and I don't know if this film comes from a genuine place, seeing as the book obviously came from a genuine place, and it feels disingenuous. And from what you've told me in terms of, like, the production, it really doesn't surprise me. And I just don't think that this film deserves the praise, or at least the praise towards the filmmaker, uh, who. Who decided to take this story and adapt it. Um, and I certainly do not think that it deserves it on the basis of how he's treated these women either. So I'm. Yeah, I'm just. I'm disappointed by it in general. And I think the two central performances are the only thing that really give this film any value.
Laura: Yeah, I gave the film a three and a half because I liked it, and it's hard to separate the production from the final outcome, which is a shame, in a way, because you should be able to appreciate what we have in the film, because I do think the film is a nice story, and it is. I didn't find it sterile. Some of the sex scenes I did, because it's just, they're just too long. But I think that the story between these two characters is really nice, and I do like their journey, and, uh, it's touching. There's a lot of crying and snot and not enough tissues for Adele, which is, which is troubling. But I thought it was nice and it elicited a lot of emotions for me. You know, there was that scene in the beginning where Adele meets with Emma the first time, where Emma picks her up from school, which is kind of gross because she's definitely too old for her. But Adele's friends are teasing her in this horrible way, and it's just so upsetting. And it reminds me of how awful it is to be in school and to have shitty friends. But I don't know. I think it's a nice story and it is too long, and I just, I have to be the positive one here. This movie is way too long. But I, and it took us ages to watch it, but I think if he sat down and took the time, I don't think it would feel as long as it is. I liked it. I didn't hate this movie. I liked it, and I would recommend it.
Ryan: I mean, I'm just, because I gave it a two, I don't think I hated it. I think our, our scales are slightly different. Anyway.
Laura: Um, very subjective.
Ryan: Yeah, I would say so. But, like, I mean, I give it a two. That doesn't mean that I hate it. I have certain respect for elements of it. I just don't think it's, I just don't think it, uh, comes together particularly well. I just, I wish it was in the hands of somebody else.
Laura: Yeah, probably. This guy has, from what I've read and seen, he's very much not in the public eye at the moment, especially after this and after the allegations and how much the actors have come out and said, we will never work with this man again. That's not good. I've never heard of that before, even in troubled productions. You know, I've never heard of actors actively saying, out in the world, I'm not going to work with this person again.
Ryan: I mean, not often, no. But, yeah, I mean, well, yeah, I mean, from the Murray Max Weinstein shit, like, there's plenty of people who are coming out about that anyway. Um, no, I mean, if any of, if any of that stuff is true, um, and we kind of have to go on the basis that it is, then I see. Good riddance.
Laura: Yeah.
Ryan: Innocently.
Laura: So, but there we go.
Ryan: Yeah. Whatever his work is, it's a drop in the bucket compared to the absolute, uh, uh, torrent of talent that's
01:05:00
Ryan: pouring out into cinema now.
Laura: So at least we have these two women. They were incredible. They were both incredible in this film, and good for them. Yeah, no, wonderful.
Ryan: Well, yeah, they still have careers, so.
Laura: I mean, that's lucky for us.
Ryan: Yeah. Good for them.
Laura: Good for them. Well, what a ride. Thanks for being here, Ryan, and coming, uh, to you from a sad art show breakup scenario.
Ryan: Oh, God.
Laura: I have been. Laura.
Ryan: I am, um. Ryan.
Laura: Au revoir. Au revoir. And, uh, bye. Bye.
Ryan: Bye. Goodbye