It's about time that we dove into Visconti's world, right? And how better to start than with his penultimate film: CONVERSATION PIECE.
I hope that none of you have ever experienced the intrusion of some bad neighbors. Certainly not to the point that they force you to rent out your prospective second library and refurbish it to become a garish 1970s Post-Modern monstrosity.
This is the crux of the film CONVERSATION PIECE, written and directed by master filmmaker Luchino Visconti. It stars Burt Lancaster as the central character. This film is a real treat that is handled with finesse and grace. It's an anxiety-inducing mystery tale about loneliness, generational differences, and lamenting on your past.
Just remember, when all the dust settles, it all started because of a painting.
From Solitude to Chaos: A Dive into Visconti's World
Laura: Ciao a tutti, benvenuto On the BiTTE, the podcast that uncovers full frontal male nudity in cinema. My name is Laura and I am joined by my upstairs roommate, Ryan.
Ryan: See, we were watching the film and this man is way too polite. He's way too nice.
Laura: Yes
Ryan: Too nice. And it reminded me of you. We had a conversation the other night and I was like, I wouldn't be surprised if I came home from work. And you're just like, um, Ryan, just so you're aware, this, uh, man is Gregory and he's going to be staying in the other room. Um, because I was too polite to tell him to fuck off.
Laura: He signed a non negotiable, non renewable year lease on that one room.
Ryan: We have a lawyer now, Ryan, and uh, that lawyer has spoken to his lawyer and it's basically non negotiable. They can also go to extend it and we're probably going toa have to say yes.
Laura: I don't know why I opened this in Italian when the film is in English, but it's set in Italy. Not that you see any of it.
Ryan: It's set in Italy, directed by an Italian, a legendary Italian filmmaker. But yeah, I mean, it's Burt Lancaster.
Laura: Hold on, what are we even doing here? You hush. This is my part. You be quiet right now. We are talking today about the 1974 drama Conversation piece, directed by Lucino Visconti, uh, starring Burt Lancaster, Helmut Berger, Silvano Manano, Claudia Marsani and Stefano Patriz. See? Yeah, um, the synopsis of this film that I pulled from letterboxed is a bit of a word salad. So forgive.
Ryan: But you understand why the film is in English though? Like you understand why?
Laura: Of course.
Ryan: Okay.
Laura: I watched it.
Ryan: Mhm.
Laura: I seen this motion picture.
Ryan: Because there's plenty of Italian films that are in English, like tons of them.
Laura: Yes.
Ryan: To try and break the. So they break the barrier of the mainstream. So they, they just hit another, uh, they hit a much wider audience if they'not if they're not completely in Italian.
Laura: We will talk a little bit more about that in a moment. I have something to say about it, but I will give you the synopsis of Conversation Piece, which is. A retired professor of American origin lives a solitary life in a luxurious palazzo in Rome. He is confronted by a vulgar Italian marchqueesa and her lover, her daughter and her daughter's boyfriend, and forced to rent to them an apartment on the upper floor of his palazzo.
Ryan: Forced.
Laura: From this point on, his quiet routine is turned into chaos by his tenant machinations and Everybody's life takes an unexpected but inevitable turn. Weird.
Ryan: But here's the problem. Like he says, yes, he does. They just like, they force him. But the thing is, is like it's not forced in the way of like, well, I've got a gun. I'm gonna fucking pop you in the head if you don't sign this lease.
Laura: They're just so incredibly pushy and annoying.
Ryan: Like there's a, like, there's a cordiality to the whole thing where it's just kind of like, well, this is, this is irritating. And to try and limit the irritation in this moment, I will just say yes to this quite bombastic, ridiculous notion. It just that, yeah, to me, I'm like, I was, I was questioning it the entire time. But you know what, what's weird about it is that that makes it so incredibly interesting for what. It's just like you can't, um, you don't understand it. But I think there's a lot more, there's a lot more to it than I'm just being like, well, no, I want to be on my own. It's like, does he want to be on his own?
Laura: Correct. Yeah. It's an interesting like caughtomy because it could have turned into a wacky, zany comedy. It could have also turned into a horror film. I feel like I've seen this horror film before where you have uninvited guests and it has to get rid of them.
Ryan: It has a weird anxiety about it.
Laura: Yeah, it is strange where you're kind of like.
Ryan: Cause this is, this is, this is where. Well, yeah, there is, there's horror movies based off this concept. Um, but this is kind of scarier because it is set more real world where it's like bad neighbors. And I don't know if we've all kind of gone through like a bad neighbor. We're very lucky in our neighborhood. We don't really have like bad neighbors. Like everyone minds their own business basically. Um, but like those people who like impose themselves onto your life for one way or another or doing, I think like it is, it is genuinely nightmarish. Like
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Ryan: it's a day to day nightmare.
Laura: Because you can't escape there. Especially in this situation. They are in his house. They're just, uh, upstairs.
Ryan: Yeah. In his second library.
Laura: Yeah. Well, he has a lot of books.
Ryan: He does have a lot of book. And the thing is, is like the apartment that they look at is completely uninhabitable. Like completely uninhabitable. Um, but I mean, yeah, it just kind of gets. It just kind of gets worse. Worse.
Laura: The tagline of this film is a tangled web, bizarre mystery.
Ryan: Okay. Very.
Laura: It's not really mysterious in any way.
Ryan: Well, that's also incredibly vague. Likeactly. Yeah, that could be like. Hold on, just get. Go to the tagline box. That's like the vague taglines. And we'll just use one of those.
Laura: Because it makes it almost look like an Agatha Christie, uh, mystery. If you look at the poster, the one that's on the chessard, you've seen the poster for the film. Anyway, their heads are on chess pieces.
Ryan: Well, he did death in Venice as well, this guy.
Laura: Well, then that makes sense.
Ryan: But.
Laura: Yeah, but having that tagline on that makes it look as though they're each playing this little game back and forth, which I. I mean, potentially like a.
Ryan: Detective is going to come in. Like a Hercule Proot. He's going to come in and be like, we got to solvevent murder.
Laura: Right? But we don't even get to that point.
Ryan: No, I think it's more's. Uh, no, because there's a lot of, like, familial, like, internal politics going on that he just kind of gets embroiled with. And they talk to him, he sticks.
Laura: His nose into their business.
Ryan: He does. But he also gets embroiled in it because it is. It is forced upon him to a certain degree where he just. He has to contend with these people. Certainly the mother, she's the fucking worst.
Laura: The daughters.
Ryan: And the daughter, I'm just like. You're just like. You just want a throttler. Like, you just. I mean, I would just chuck her off the fucking veranda. Like, I would just be like, no, no, we don't need this. Um, they're all quite disgusting individuals. You have a lot of. Lot of sympathy for the man. But I also, like, I limit that sympathy because he's just way too polite.
Laura: It is interesting because you cannot have all of your eggs in one person's basket, because not everyone is good and not everyone is bad.
Ryan: No.
Laura: But before we dive too deep, I want you to give us a little bit of background on Visconti, our director, which is. This is his penultimate film, pretty much.
Ryan: Yeah. Because. Well, we'll out. We'll find out why he died in a second.
Laura: Oh, my gosh.
Ryan: Yeah.
Laura: Oh, no.
Ryan: Um, but anyone is. This is probably our most. One of our most notable directors that we've probably covered because I've spoke about his films on this podcast a fair amount. Um, but this Locino Visconti, he's the Italian filmmaker theat and opera director. And he was also a screenwriter. He's one of the forefathers of Italian neoorealism, along with Roberto Larlini, who made Rome Open City and Vittorio D. Sico, who did the Bicycle Thieves. And obviously a host of, uh, like others, I mean, Antonio Antonioni is also, uh, involved in that. Michelangelo Andonioni, who did, uh, blow up.
Laura: Are you just talking about a group of Italian best friends?
Ryan: There's a lot of them.
Laura: Um, that's wonderful.
Ryan: But this is, this was, this was one of the seminal post war cinema movements. Um, and it's also referred to by many critics as the golden age of Italian cinema. And I would happen to agree as well. Um, we've got a lot of their films in the house. If you're at tall interested, see and got quite a lot of Visconti'films in the house as well.
Laura: I am interested. Thank you very much.
Ryan: They are interesting to watch. I would definitely watch Rome Open City again. That movie is pretty fucking good. And Bicycle Thieves is a classic. So, um, so Visconti, um, he joined the Italian Communist Party to combat the rise of Italian fascism. Um, in April 1944. He was a resistance fighter and he was almost sentenced to death by firing squad. But there was an intervention. Um, there's several different days. I didn't think the story was that interesting that I was like, here's a bunch of names of people. You have no idea who they are. Um, it's maybe also my ignorance that's also coming into play there. But yes, he almost died. Um, so, yeah, he was a seminal filmmaker during the 1940s and into the 50s. Um, but Visconti smoked at least 120 cigarettes a day.
Laura: Ew.
Ryan: Yeah.
Laura: How do you have time?
Ryan: Well, he just, uh, that contributed because he was Italian, he's European, it's quite thin, cosmopolitan. Um, and he was an open homosexual. He made, uh, no qualms about the fact that he, uh, was in love with men.
Laura: Um, good.
00:10:00
Laura: Good for him.
Ryan: But yeah, certainly the cigarettes probably didn't help towards his health. And he did, he did pass away in the, uh. I think it was the 1970s. Um, but yeah, let's look at some of these films.
Laura: Yeah. Two years after this film.
Ryan: Yeah. Um, release. So not an extensive filmography, but honestly, quite, quite good. Um, starts in 43, 1943, with obsession. Uh, 1948 was Lera Tremma Belissima came in 1951. Senso came in 1954. Um, I kind of opted to use the English titles than the Italian ones because I feel like our audience is mostly English, so they'll be a little bit more recognizable in English titles. Uh, Lenotti, Bianchi. Uh, Bianch. Oh, no, hold on. Biani. That's probably correct. Anyway, 1957. Um, I did this abbreviated version because I wanted to say it this way, but Rocco and his'bros. Which is obviously not what is meant to be. He is meant to be. Rocco. Rocco and his brothers from 1961. The Leopard from 1963, very famous film. Sandra from 65. The Stranger from 67. The Damned from 69. Death in Venice, another famous film by 1971. Ludwig from 1975. And then we have, uh, O no, Sorry, 1973 for Ludwig Conversation, uh, Piece from 1974. And then his final film was the Innocent in 1976. But, um, yes, a very interesting, very seminal filmmaker that influenced countless other filmmakers over his time.
Laura: If you look up photos of him online, he has a cigarette in every single one of them. And I wanted to know if he was hot. And he's not. Not hot. He'he a. He'al right.
Ryan: Yeah, he's a pretty bristly Italian man. You know? U they are, they are those.
Laura: I feel like I can smell him through these photos.
Ryan: People who. Yeah, his nicotine fingers. Um, well, here's the thing. They were, they were built differently back then. Like, it's not like now. Like these guys were like, they went to war and they did a whole bunch of fucked up stuff and then they came back and they started making films. So these, these are very different breed of individual here. But like, I don't know, you look at, you pick out some of the handful of things there. Like, even Visconti's worst film is still a great film. You know what I mean? Like, it'of those, it's one of those filmmakers he's up there with, you know, Kurosawa Ou I, uh, mean obviously Roberto Rossellini m. Billy Wilder. Like a whole bunch of very classical filmmakers who made very huge strides, uh, in the very, very much like the golden age, uh, of moviek making and the talkies and stuff. So.
Laura: Wow.
Ryan: Yeah. Yeah. I mean it's.
Laura: I can't wait to dive deep, see if there's any more penises hidden in his work.
Ryan: I doubt it. I doubt it very, very highly. Um, o thought that was your stomach. A bike just went past in case it wasn't picked up on the mic. That's what we're reacting to.
Laura: Well, you were saying the English titles of his films and the Italian title of this film is Grupo de Familia in Unintterno, which translates to family group in an interior. So it's a reference to a group portrait. The one is, you know, pretty prevalent in the 18th century in Britain. And that type of painting, we just kind of have an informal group setting. Is a conversation piece.
Ryan: Yep. Yeah. Um, yeah. And that's. That's something that I feel like it's kind of lost in this generation, is that that doesn't really exist anymore. But it's very much a kind of middle. Upper. Middle class. Upper class sort of, uh, sensibility. I mean, that's very much what that is.
Laura: Um, mean, this film's quite elegant. You know, everyone is pretty elegant. And especially the professor, the way he speaks and the way he conducts himself.
Ryan: Yeah, he does. The thing is, is like he lives. He lives in a relatively bleak house. Um, but I feel like it's bleak.
Laura: In what way is his house bleak? It's a palazzo. It's got beautiful statues and paintings and books and furniture. Decadent.
Ryan: It's in comparison to what this place was like before, where it felt like it was full of energy and there was people in the house and there was a tone to the place that made you feel like it was welcoming and it wasn't so kind of, you know, dark and broody. Which is what I feel like they're trying to make comparison to here, is that
00:15:00
Ryan: he is, by virtue of the fact that he does not want to feel like he's going toa get hurt or have to deal with anything ever again. Is that he. That's why he is. Is. He is in solitude. Um. Um. You know, he doesn't like to open the windows. He doesn't like to do this, he doesn't like to do that. Like, I feel like it's a very. It's a very conscious decision on the parts of the filmmakers to kind of make that distinction. Because there's flashbacks in the film that give you little hints as to what his life was like before. Because you don't know an awful lot about the man.
Laura: You never even know his name.
Ryan: You never know his name. And he speaks about his past with, uh. Yeah, it's very melancholic in the way that he kind of speaks about it. But, you know, there's a wife. There's some strife that we're seen. And I mean, that's something I quite like about the film, is that we don't. We don't focus on that. It's like little flashes where he's obviously feeling some elements of guilt about the way that he dealt with the situation. And he's now just kind of. He's just buried in his work, you know. But there s. There's the thing I like about this film as well, is that it has a very kind of classical. Has a very classical plot line and that something relatively quite innocuous is the thing that just snowballs into this much, much bigger thing. And really it just kind of falls on this painting about this man who's wanting to buy a painting, but then it's too expensive. And then it all centers around this painting, all the rest of the shenanigans that takes part. So, yeah, and that's something I kind of like. That's just. That's just a sign of good writing that it has this small little thing that then just kind of draws you into the story. And that's what I'I mean, I think this film'very very interesting. I don't understand a lot of kind of his. His, uh, his reasoning for it, like how polite he is and how many times he has to say no to these people and that they don't listen.
Laura: It does get frustrating because as soon as the film starts where you kind of get to see where this is going, he is saying no quite a bit. Oh. She walks in going, I know that the upstairs apartment is not for rent, but I just want to look at it. And he goes, I'm not bringing you upstairs because it's not for rent. And then it just gos. Going and going where he gives a little. And then as soon as hes ``s a little, she realizes, like, I can manipulate this man.
Ryan: Yeah.
Laura: And then she just manipulates and turns and turns and turns until she literally gets everything she wants. It doesn't he say that they're only allowed to renovate like one room, the.
Ryan: Uh, one of the bathrooms and they.
Laura: Completely redo the entire upstairs.
Ryan: Well, they tear down day one. They tear down walls and stuff. Well, the thing is from day one and that's like again, like it does a very good job's they re masterful with the way that it does this. But like just like, what's the worst thing that could happen if you give people just that little bit of rope and it's like the maids in the kitchen and you can see the ceiling in the kitchen buckling ye raking. And I'd be like, oh my fucking Christ, what the fuck is going on?
Laura: I would be, I mean, furious. I mean he gets furious, but he doesn't like, I don't know. It's so frustrating.
Ryan: And also, he's so incredibly reserved about everything.
Laura: He goes upstairs when that whole thing is happening. When these people, after they've barged and barged and barged their way in, he goes up there to say something and he gets threatened with a gun.
Ryan: Well, this is when he meets Conrad for the first time, because we'we only ever heard about Conrad. So, like, when the family basically barrage themselves into his life and they just. They basically force him to give up the apartment, his, like, second library, um, to. To rent it out to them. They do have the understanding that, like, you know, it's this man. This man's going to be staying there. He'll be here. M. You know, we'll also be here. You know, the kids, they'll definitely be living here, but it'll be the kids in this man. And you're never really 100% sure who this man is. All you know is that you hear, you've been. You're hearing a lot of noise, you're hearing that, this, that, and the next thing. And the apartment is completely dark. And yes, he's basically threatened with a gun. Um, when he first meets Conrad, he's like, you're lucky. I could have shot you. Um, and it's like, well, this is my place. This is my house. So the film does a really good job of characterizing who these people are and what their intentions are, but then clouding it enough so you're just like, there is an element. M. That's where the mystery is, Laura.
Laura: Because you. I mean, yeah, to be fair, you don't know what, what is the deal? What is the deal with these people?
Ryan: And by the
00:20:00
Ryan: end of the film, you're still not 100% sure what the deal is. You're kind of just like. Because it doesn't have. I guess, like, if this was a classical Hollywood film, there would be, like, the big reveal where it's like, what, we're trying to steal your paintings or whatever it is. Like, we've implanted ourselves into your lives because they're going to leech off of you for. Until you're. Until you're no longer around. But, uh, that's not really what happens here. It's incredibly passive, and he's, like, accepting of it, uh, even though, like, as an audience'like this is making me incredibly uncomfortable because you wouldn't feel that passive if it was. If it was true. But by him being kind of accepting of this, it puts you a little Bit on the edge of your seat.
Laura: Yeah, it's. So they allude to. Oh, he, you know, he doesn't have enough money to get this painting originally. Right. And so you're thinking maybe he will give up the apartment because he needs the money. But it's like, more, really.
Ryan: I don't know if it's that he didn't have the money. I think it was that he's like, um, I'm not paying that much for that.
Laura: Right.
Ryan: Like, I think that's too much.
Laura: I still think that could be maybe like a little bit of a. You know, maybe he doesn't have the money.
Ryan: I mean, potentially. I just think it's like, he doesn't. He's not. He's like, well, no, he's like, doesn't want to be swindled. But then the thing is, is that the daughter does confirm that they were like, yeah, they were like, well, yeah, they were selling. They were upselling it because they knew what you liked and that's what they were doing. They were like, well, that. Well, we didn't agree with that. So, you know. But again, like, they use the painting as an element of bribery. So it's like this thing that you wanted that you didn't want to pay so much for, we've now bought it and we're using it as a deposit on the apartment upstairs that you were not wanting to rent us.
Laura: So insane.
Ryan: It's crazy.
Laura: I'd go, get out. Enjoy your painting, weirdo.
Ryan: Yeah, you would. You would.
Laura: And then is it his attorney that comes by who's like, hey, you said you weren't going to renovate that upstairs for your library until next year.
Ryan: Yeah, I really don't.
Laura: And he really pushes him into it as well.
Ryan: He does. There's a lot of manipulation going on. And I think, like, one of the. One of the biggest things is that. Yeah. I mean, the lawyers also in on the. On the manipulation for some reason. I don't really understand why. But the thing is, is that. Because we don't really understand why, it just makes it instantly quite gripping. Or at least to me, it does. I'm just. I'm like. I'm just fascinated by it. I'm like, how the fuck is he allowing this to go on and on and on? But as the film goes on, you're like, well, he likes to be alone, and he is alone. He's maybe a little lonely, right? So, like. And a little injection into the monotony of, like, his life. We'd actually not be that bad. Uh, I don't think he expected it to be this immersive, I guess, or like all encompassing. Like it takes up a large portion of his life.
Laura: It seems as though he is just dealing with them most of the time. They're either being loud and he intervenes or they're just showing up all the time.
Ryan: Yes.
Laura: And it's kind of wild.
Ryan: It's kind of wild. And I just. Yeah, it just makes the film interesting and it just has a classical cinema aspect of it. I think, obviously the thing about it as well is that the minute Conrad shows up, I mean, s. You know, the C words getting thrown about like crazy. Like he's calling the mother a cunt, like all this sort of thing.
Laura: And it know what's funny is that in the original British release of this film, they edited out cunt, which is hilarious, because that is the favorite word of that entire island of the nation. Of the nation.
Ryan: Yeah. We love it so much that we made it endeeing.
Laura: Exactlywherese. Uh, it's funny to me that in that version they go, oh, we have to censor that word.
Ryan: It's because it's being used in the harshest way possible. He's like referring to a woman with the worst word that has ever been uttered out of anyone's lips to describe a woman. I mean, that's basically what that is. Um, but that's the thing, like what you kind of get, because Conrad's a very. He's a very interesting character and that he is the only person that the professor kind of warms up to. He's kind of forced to warm up to. Well, the mother's kind of cold and calcul and he can see that the daughter's very kind of frank and honest to the point where it's irritating. And the boyfriend is kind of this annoying,
00:25:00
Ryan: mincy, kind of overly intelligent young man who kind of, you know, does a lot of the apologizing for the most part. But when Conrad is. They are. And he's talking and he's telling his stories and stuff, he is interesting. Like, he is interesting where it is. I mean, the way that they refer to Conrad, I mean, there's a line from the movies where it's like. Like the population of Eastern Europe knows that he's a born whore. So, like, he's just kind of going across the world and he's kind of like. I mean, the thing is, is like he's an enigmatic character and there's certainly things that come out because, you know, the war, the wars in the past. He's. He's, you know, he was, uh. You know, there's elements of politics being brought into the film, like people's origins, like, where did your riches come from? Like, you know, all this sort of thing which I think is, you know, it stems very closely to Visconti's own, um, Own personal history as well. But at the same time there's a. There's a very. There's a cloud of mystery around Conrad and that he's kind of jet setting across Europe and then he comes back and he's this. He's this woman's like toy boy, basically. He's the kept boy. So he's like. She pays for him to be around while he's, you know, satisfying her, so to speak. Um, and it's kind of like. Yeah, the minute that the professor and Conrad have those interactions, the film does get incredibly interesting, certainly because Conrad's life is in such upheaval. Like when the. The two men, like, break into his apartment and beat the shit out of him. We never know who they are either.
Laura: Oh, I thought it was the people that beat him up because he wasn't paying his debts. His gambling debts.
Ryan: Yeah, I think that's what that is. But the thing is, you never find out who they are.
Laura: Yeah.
Ryan: Ca.
Laura: Because he wants everything to be a secret. That's kind of the moment where you see this interesting kind of connection between the professor and Conrad. Um, not. I don't. I don't necessarily want to say a kinship or anything, but like a familiarity and a weird type of respecteah. Um, you know, they still butt heads, but they have. They're finding a common ground.
Ryan: I mean, you find out why much, much, much, much later. And it's like the throwst away line of throwaway lines that's ever been uttered in a film. Um, because the ending itself is this chaotic mess. Um, but the thing is, is they have a kinship. And like, one of the. One of the best moments in the film, in my opinion, is that Burt Lancaster just walks in. The professor just walks in on. On. On Conrad just having a shower. And there's no shower, ker. And he just stands there and just has the conversation with them. Um, it's almost completely in the nutty.
Laura: It's almost like a taster for what he does later on because, uh, you wouldn't expect it from him. But he obviously has these weird voyeuristic tendencies where he's observing all the time. He's constantly observing this family. He's observing Conrad you know, and he stands in the bathroom door just completely casual. So incredibly like more casual than people that have been in a relationship for 50 years that have seen each other naked a thousand times.
Ryan: Yeah.
Laura: He's just standing there casually having conversation with this maneah. Yeah. No shower curtain.
Ryan: And it's gonna be really hard for us to get across. It's not the tone of the film, but it's the way that it's pieced together. Because every time I looked at the time clock when we were watching the movie, you know, it's like only a couple of minutes had passed, but so much had happened in a couple of minutes.
Laura: Yeah.
Ryan: That you're just kind of like. It's very difficult to catch up to the point where it's just like. I'm not. Don't want to kind of over explain anything either, because I think the film is as good as, like, an experience to watch. U. Um, as a good. Like u. You, uh, know a good, um. Um. It would make a fantastic theater piece, I think. And it probably. It probably is.
Laura: Oh, yeah.
Ryan: Fic. There's two sets, really, so it'all take all. You never see the streets. You never see the streets. It's all takes place in, uh, the apartment upstairs and the downstairs U, Um, uh, house. So that's it. You never leave the confines of that place. Um, but that's the thing. Like, that's not even the. That's not even the penising. That's. That's still to. That's still to come.
Laura: Not too long after that, though. But we can get into it.
Ryan: Yes, we probably should.
Laura: It's an hour, 14 minutes and about 55 seconds into the
00:30:00
Laura: film. So the professor is in bed. You know, was he reading or was he sleeping? But he is roused at least by loud music upstairs. Well, which is always happening.
Ryan: Yeah. This is at the point of the movie, though, where we start to see flashbacks into the past. So we start to see how bright and colorful and energetic the house used to be. Um, and then we start to see images and glimpses of obviously, the marriage breaking down and conversations that are quite uncomfortable. And it's all seen in, effectively, his first person. So it's all him kind of remembering what happened then. So I think that's kind of important to put out there is that the film is slowly beginning to turn a little bit. And it's getting a little bit darker by the time we get to this moment.
Laura: Well, yeah. Uh, well, he's always keen to run upstairs and find out what's going on. It doesn't matter what time of day and night he is. He's always interested in what's going on upstairs.
Ryan: Well, I think after what's happened where his. Almost the entirety of his ceiling has been caved in from whatever work they were doing. And then when he goes up there, they found that, like, supporting walls are now gone. I would be very curious as to whatever is going on in the apartment at any moment in time.
Laura: So, well, he just invites himself in, opens the door and walks in into a cool little threesome. Okay. With Conrad, uh, the Countess of Marsa's daughter and her boyfriend.
Ryan: They're in a kind of weird, like marijuana tantric haze.
Laura: Yeah, yeah, they are because they're kind of just floating around, arms out, music, going completely nude, kissing each other, kissing and rubbing.
Ryan: Kissing and rubbin.
Laura: Nothing too. They're not engaging in any sort of actual sexual.
Ryan: No, there's no quitice taken, no quitist.
Laura: No intercourse. No, it's not that, um, genital touching. It's just like floatating. Harsh, as if they were. Yeah, they're on drugse.
Ryan: I mean, I think you said it. But the only light coming is from whatever happened when the professor opened the door. They were basically calling this in the dark. Yeah, it's like the light coming from the doorway. So they were completely in the dark entire time. Just, just waving aroundokok in the dark. Smoking. I'm assuming they're smoking weed probably because obviously the drug stuff comes up later on and the kids are like, uh.
Laura: Oh, the professor'just standing in the door. He doesn't say a word. And he is watching them prance around naked pretty much for a while. Pretty much he's just standing there and watching them. So ultimately I think they end up noticing him and are very cool about it. The daughter goes and does a speech to him in the nude.
Ryan: The first. The first of real. Not the first, but one of many of her speeches that she gives to this relatively quite well educated older man.
Laura: What is the gist of that?
Ryan: Uh, she's a minor as well. We have to remember this. She's a min.
Laura: I will bring that up in just a second. But her speech is something about, like, enjoying your flesh while you have it and just, you know, living life as it comes. Something like that, essentially. Right.
Ryan: Well, she was kind of like. Well, that's the thing. She was like guilting him into, um, like in his past. It'like have you not done anything like this? And it's like, that makes me sad because, you know, your, your best years are behind you and all this sort of thing, like, very, very kind of just like, oh, fuck. It's like, well, you've not danced naked in the dark with some weed.
Laura: Well, he also doesn't help that situation because he's constantly saying, I'm old. I'm an old man. As if just y. Uh, just crawling into his grave.
Ryan: Yeah.
Laura: Even though he's not that old.
Ryan: Well, he's. Yeah, he's waiting to just travel. He just wants to get back into his rock and then that's it. Cause the. Even the books and stuff that he reads, um, very much lament on the fact that, like, these are stories about people who are eventually gonna die. And it's like, this is the only interaction I have, and this is the briefest of interactions I have with the outside world. But I'm getting older and I'm gonna die, and my life was a dark mess. And this is how this is. And it's just like, well, this is my. This is my doing. So I will just deal with the consequences of that. I will just live with the guilt. I will mourn. Mourn the loss of, uh, my life as it is passing slowly. So.
Laura: Well, this is probably the moment of the most stark dichotomy between, uh,
00:35:00
Laura: the groups of people that we have, especially the young folk and the professor who is staring down the barrel of death, even though he's not really, but he feels as though he is. He's had a life. He's lived his life. And maybe he's not as satisfied as he thought that he was when looking through the lens of these young characters who have bombarded him.
Ryan: Well, I think the issue is that he's willing it. You know what I mean?
Laura: Like, willing death.
Ryan: He's willing death. So he's inevitably shortening his life because he's just like, willing it to just consume him. Basically.
Laura: He just feels like it's time to wind down pretty much.
Ryan: It says time, even though it's time is over, necessary. Well, he's got. It's like, you have to. Then your questioning is like, well, what does he have? What is he living for? He's living for his work. And that's all that is taking place in his life. And he is wandering the halls of a house that used to be occupied by the people that loved him. And he's now. Now been bombarded by this family who are injecting at least. And you see this. There's comparisons between what happened to him in the past and what's happening now where he. They come into his life and they inject just a little bit of the same energy that he was used to.
Laura: Yeah. It's giving him life.
Ryan: Yes.
Laura: In a way. Even though it's really frustrating these people.
Ryan: Yeah. Which is why I think he is also like, well, I'll just deal with it because I can.
Laura: It's like, okay, so we have so re. We're still in this penis scene where you've got the dichotomy of generations. And he's there in his robe. Everyone's still nude. Uh, and I think everyone just kind of becomes more. I don't know, maybe they're coming back to reality, becoming less aroused y. And they just start casually getting dressed, putting their clothes on. But I did want to point out that the daughter in this film, uh, played by Claudia Marsani, was 15 years old when she auditioned for this film.
Ryan: Oh, dear.
Laura: And, um, photos of her without a blouse were published. And the director was asked about it, and he replied, well, I made the girl take off her blouse because she has to do a nude scene in the film. And I wanted to make sure she was beautiful undressed.
Ryan: Okay.
Laura: That's just a very matter of fact. Well, if she's goingna be nude in the movie, I gotta make sure she looks good.
Ryan: Uh, 15 years old and you don't really see her. You don't see her nips or anything. You do o. Do you? Yeah, I wasn't looking.
Laura: Well, she was. When they're all getting dressed, you can see going on.
Ryan: Well, it'yeah. It's, uh, Conrad's penis that we see. And it's in the wide shot and he's completely directly in the light. And he just turns and you see it and it's there for a while. Um, and it just kind of just solid. Because for us, at least like that, at least a. It's a brave moment in a film that's from the 70s anyway, by this filmmaker because I felt like it was relatively quite brave for the amount of swearing that came out of this as well.
Laura: Yeah.
Ryan: Um, but the thing is, is that, um. Yeah, no, it's. It's, ah. It's an interesting. It's a weird scene. Um, but I do think. I do think it's quite effective.
Laura: It's. It's interesting because you do kind of have, like. It builds and builds and builds. You know, weird stuff is going on upstairs, you know, that they have a different lease on life and different. You know, it's a generational differences where, you know, it's like they're more Free. And they show their, I don't know, their love or their lust or whatever in a different way. Like he's from such a different time. And so for him to come upstairs and see these people that he's been hanging out with, totally nude, doing things that he's never even conceived of in his life.
Ryan: This is a man who had a secret room from, like, the Second World War for when they were like, protecting the Jews and things like that. Like, he still had that secret room in his library that he was using.
Laura: Yeah. Very different contrasts to these, to these people's lives that he is just observing and witnessing, making comparisons to his own life. And just seeing this man, you know, right in front of him, completely nude and incredibly comfortable in his own skin. And just seeing how comfortable this man is and these young people compared to how he is personally feeling.
Ryan: Yeah.
Laura: Is really interesting. It's another stark, interesting difference between the two, uh, groups of people.
Ryan: Well, that's the thing. I don't think he had an issue with seeing Conrad naked
00:40:00
Ryan: because he'd already seen him in the shower at this point.
Laura: No, of course not. But it's just seeing the situation.
Ryan: It's the whole thing that he's witnessing that I think is, is. Is obviously this, like the, the stark contrast.
Laura: Because when he walked into the bathroom and saw him showering, he knew what he was gonna see.
Ryan: Yeah.
Laura: But when he walked upstairs at this moment.
Ryan: Yeah.
Laura: No idea.
Ryan: No, no. And it's. It's an odd moment, but I mean, it's. It's like, it's definitely interesting. U. Um, yes. Like from here. I mean, it's just's there'you know, elements of criminality come into Conrad's live. There's the mention of drugs. Um, you see how gayish they've made the apartment upstairs. It's very 70s Italian. Um, looks awful.
Laura: It does look terrible.
Ryan: Looks fucking awful. But're like, yeah, the film, the film, like, because he's, you know, Conrad. There's the issue thereness again. It's like all. It's, you know, it's insinuated like these, you know, it's like, uh, hearsay and gossip and the police come and all this sort of thing. But there's the intimation that Conrad is the professor's son.
Laura: No, I think is't it? No, it's not necessarily like that. Because the daughter was saying, oh, if I could and I got pregnant, I would have this baby and give it to you, Professor. He goes, no, I need someone older. Like, he wants someone to mentor and someone to, to help grow and give his knowledge onto somebody else. Right. Like, like a son. And so she goes, you should adopt Conrad then. And that was just the whole jokes like uh, from that probably drug infused moment she was like Conrad's your kid now, that's your son.
Ryan: Right. But I thought that was what, that's what the letter said that Conrad sent.
Laura: Yeah, he said your son but I think that was just all part of the in joke.
Ryan: Oh, okay.
Laura: Or maybe he looked upon him as someone that he would have appreciated to have as a father because obviously his.
Ryan: Life, that makes more sense because I felt like they were really top loading it at the end of.
Laura: No, I don't think so Theuck. I think he was just playing along with the whole thing and maybe he appreciated how he was treated by the professor because the professor did, despite all of the bullshit, take care of him and did care.
Ryan: Well, yeah, I think. Well the boyfriend also says no children, no fuss. Which is something I would probably get tattooed on my chest. But yeah, I mean.
Laura: Well, they also have that big group dinner and the daughter doesn't stop talking but she says, oh, we're a family. I've just made us all a family. We're a family now. Family forever. So she's our little Vin Diesel making sure everyone is getting along.
Ryan: Yeah, yeah. Just forced himself into this man's life who has really every, every turn over the latter part of this film tried to just get rid of them. Um, and he's tried his best but he keeps on inviting them to dinner. He's like, he's way too polite. He's just too polite. That's the problem. He's just way too polite.
Laura: Yes he is.
Ryan: But it's okay because the cooker explodes and that's the end.
Laura: That is kind of insane. Yeah. Leave that for everyone to discover on their own because it is really.
Ryan: Uh.
Laura: Unexpected. Yeah, kind of the end is quite unexpected.
Ryan: But he didn't kill himself. They murdered him.
Laura: Mured him with their chat and their ideas.
Ryan: They didn't right wing ideology.
Laura: They didn't understand him.
Ryan: Ye.
Laura: It's hand was in the stove and everything. I don't even know how that happened.
Ryan: It's probablyus he had the match. So he lit the, he turned the gas on and then he, and then he put the uh, then he put the match in there. Probably as if you were gonna light the pilot light or something because that's, that's what you do with those old cookers. So um, yeah, there you go. And it just exploded. He Might have just been trying to make himself a cheese toasty. We don't know.
Laura: That's.
Ryan: We really don't know.
Laura: Whoops. The do this.
Ryan: Yeah, that's what happens. Um, but yeah.
Laura: I have a couple of things I wanted to bring up. We just kind of started talking about the film. So I'm gonna go back and tell you some of the things I learned. If you're ready. Yeah, if you're willingus. We did get to the end of the movie.
Ryan: I'm definitely willing.
Laura: Okay, great.
Ryan: Okay.
Laura: Uh, when this film was screened at the 1975 New York Film Festival, it was in English because it was shot in English, but there's another version in Italian with English subtitles. So this confused critics who thought the film was going to be filmed in Italian, which it often is the case with Italian films that have international cast. But this was not. It was filmed in English. And at least some of the actors in each version, the Italian or the French or the English version are dubbed by other actors for like the
00:45:00
Laura: post synchronized soundtrack which you can see that of course there's dubbing going.
Ryan: That's not. Yeah, the overdubbing of these things. I mean if you watch any gialo films have a mixture of Italian actors with obviously English speaking actors because you.
Laura: Can see at least the daughter and the boyfriend are dubbed pretty hard.
Ryan: Oh yeah, definitely. I mean it's fine but I mean it's something that you're used to after watching several of these and Stu. It'just that's just the way it is.
Laura: But apparently it was just confusing because for the critics they didn't know, they thought that the film would have been better if it was an Italian because they thought that they were watching uh, like the wrong version.
Ryan: Yes, I see.
Laura: So.
Ryan: Well back then because it's different now obviously because you know, you can see, you can see these films in like collections and like how these, you know, the stream platforms, all that sort of thing. So you can, you can see a pattern from films of this time and you know, because certainly, I mean you know, it Sit in Suspiria, I know was sitting the beyond. Um, a bunch of those kinds of movies. Um, yeah, zombie as well. Like those, ah, that Zombie Flesh Eaters movies. Like they're, they're like that, um. I know I'm just picking like, you know, I'm picking horror films basically. But like that's, I mean that's how they did it so that they could get those films into cinemas to bigger audiences and that they had to kind of be In English, this was kind of back in a time where people were a little prudish to subtitles in the cinema because, you know, we already know Americans have trouble reading.
Laura: Oh, sh.
Ryan: Um, but the thing is, is that. Yeah, no, I mean, um, it makes sense to me.
Laura: Yeah, no, of course, uh, the main character of the professor was based on an art critic and scholar named Mario Pras. And the English film title, which is obviously Conversation Pieces, is a nod to his book, Mario Praz's book called Conversation Pieces, a survey of the informal group portrait in Europe and America.
Ryan: Oay.
Laura: And it's funny because the situation that's described in this film actually happened to Mario Praz a few months after the movie was released. So, like, it's just this weird entanglement of like, oh, we're going toa base it on you. Oh, and we're going toa do a nod to your book. But it actually happened to him. But post film release where he had, like, just an uninvited group of people that ended up, like, not wanting to leave.
Ryan: Yeah. I mean, now we just call them squatters, you know, and, um, unfortunately, there's such a thing as squatters rights that you can't just go in there and, you know, burn them, set them on fire.
Laura: The role of the Countess Brumonti was actually offered to Audrey Hepburn before Syilvana, um, Maniano was cast.
Ryan: Don't know if that would have worked. Just put it out there.
Laura: Her eyebrows probably aren't thin enough to have played.
Ryan: There's plenty of things they could have done with the makeup and things. But it's like Audrey Hepburn doesn't really have that harsh looking a face. She seems quite soft.
Laura: Well, Silvana Manano was a like a heartthrob sex symbol.
Ryan: Yeah. But she's got like. She'she's. Smoldering.
Laura: Yeah.
Ryan: Like, that's the thing. Audrey Hepburn's very attractive, but I wouldn't say she's smoldering. She's kind of like. She was kind of like the, um. Yeah, she was like the timid one next door. That's why I kind of always saw Audrey Hepburn as. U, um, yeah, you know, for sure. U, um, she's great in the Children's Hour if you ever want to see that. Like, that's. That's a fantastic film. You should watch the Children's Hour with Audrey Heburn. It's probably her best film.
Laura: Okay. Yes, um, the, the story u, uh, behind Conversation Piece has been considered an allegory of the personal relationship between Helmut Beger and Visconti.
Ryan: Okay.
Laura: They've had work together quite a few times. He's in Ludwig, Ludwig M and stuff. So like of the older and the younger. And Helmeutberger has mentioned this film as his favorite that he's done in the past.
Ryan: It's good. Yeah, yeah, it's a good film.
Laura: And also on a list of favorite films, Akira Kurosawa listed this as one of his top 100 films.
Ryan: Not surprised.
Laura: And it's at number 68, just above Godfather 2. There you go.
Ryan: Nice. Well, I don't know. It's got a lot of, um. It's got a lot like that staging, the way things are blocked out and stuff like that. Like there's some shots in it where you're like, oh, that's good. Like they did a good job with that one. Um, yeah, no, I can understand that. You can watch that. And then'they they're like, yeah. I mean there's also a high and low. You should watch
00:50:00
Ryan: high and low because high and low is the ah, very u. Um, it's very, very similar to this. And just. Yeah, it's like all kind of sets. It's just, it's just like drama, Drama in apartments, basically. Just directed and filmed just very, very well.
Laura: If anyone is listening, I'm sure they making notes on all the films that you are recommending that we watch.
Ryan: It's.
Laura: I hope so, a long list. And we're going to be very busy this week watching films and I think if you don't have anything else you want to add, why don't we get into our ratings?
Ryan: Yeah, lets do that.
Laura: Im going to start. I, um, dont think I like this film as much as you did, but we're going toa see. So I gave it, um, the film itself a ah, three. Um, it's a chatty film. It's not overly verbose, but it is very, very chatty. Like you were saying before Ryan, that.
Ryan: I mean that's what films were for the most part back then.
Laura: Um, but it's one of those where you can't really take a break because you're gonna miss somethinge because everything that said means something going forward. And there's a lot of stuff that I missed and I went back and watched some of it. But you do tend to miss a thing or two if you're not know if you look at your phone or if you go to the toilet. You gott pause it.
Ryan: You gott pay attention. That's the thing.
Laura: It'like not that you're Goingna miss the overarching themes. It's quite obvious what's going on. You're not going to not know what's happening if you miss a couple of lines. But it is quite a chatty film. You. You're in two apartments, you're not going outside at all. But it doesn't feel claustrophobic.
Ryan: Well, the issue is, is that a film like this made today might be to like a standard audience be a little boring. I think that's what the problem is now.
Laura: I don't think it's boring.
Ryan: It's not noting at. But I m think to an audience today it would probably be boring because it has. It's got a very classical sensibility.
Laura: You know, I like it. I like the themes that it explores. You know, you've got the old, the new, um, generational gaps that you're dealing with. And Burrt Lancaster is really the standout. And this whole thing. He carries this entire thing bas solely on his facial expressions.
Ryan: There's a lot of very good subtext work in this.
Laura: Like his face tells you everything you need to know throughout the entire film. It's really quite incredible to watch. Everyone else is good. Helmut Burger is good as well. But hes no Burt Lancaster. Hes incredible.
Ryan: Well, no, Burt Lancaster is just like. Yeah, hes a tiring behemoth of a man.
Laura: Um, and I gave uh. In terms of visibility and context on that penis Sc oh, shoot. I'nna give. Let's just give it a three. It maybe could get a three and a half. But it's a really important scene for the film. And the visibility is not amazing. But I think that it'really important to. Its the most stark contrast between the two groups of people at that point. And I think that it really lends itself to that theme of the separation between the old and the new. And I think its's great.
Ryan: Yeah. Cause I mean, Il'll second that so that I don't end, uh, up repeating myself for the scene. Um. Yeah. Because I'd probably give it a three as well. Um. And yeah, it is the. Yeah. Is the most revolatory. Revelatory. Revelatory.
Laura: Uh, I get what you mean.
Ryan: Scene U. Um. That. Yeah. That kind of. Yeah. Really kind of dives a little bit more into the relationship between these two. These two, uh. I guess the family and the professor and stuff. But yeah, like you say like three. The visibility is not great and it's kind of. You know. I wouldn't say it's brief, but it's like. It Kind of has to happen in order for us to. Well, for one, for us to talk about it. The second of all, it kind of has to happen because it would be. It would feel a little cheap if it didn't, because it has to really hit it home that. That this is. There'a real. There's a real contrast. There's a dichotomy. There's a conflict there, which I think it needs to be there.
Laura: Do you know what else I like about that scene? And I'm sorry that I'm jumping in here, but I also like the fact that the daughter, like, the young girl, invites him in. It's not as though he's always on the outside of this room looking in. They invite him into the situation while they're still naked and while they're still in this state. It. It's like, come in and let us kind of explain where we're at, see where you're at, and see if we have some common ground as well. So they invite him into that. And I like that a lot because I feel like.
Ryan: And this will kind of jar into. This will jump into my rate. Like, everything that happens in the film is shrouded with, like, a mist of, you know, being his hospitable.
00:55:00
Ryan: And it's kind of like they have different, varying ranges of, you know, being polite and hospitable, like, on both sides. Which, again, I think you kind of see the contrast and stuff there. But, like, I don't know. I think it's pretty obvious to me. I think the film'great. I gave it four stars. I don't expect myself to watch it again. But the thing is, is that every time we watch one of these films, it reminds me of how much I love m older films and how much better I feel they are than modern films are now. Just because there's a better understanding of the craft. And this was. This was just. To me, it was just. It's just so much more interesting.
Laura: So the other most recent film you've watched would be Captain America, right? What is it? What is the Brave New World?
Ryan: Brave New World.
Laura: Okay, so, Ryan, uh, these are the most two recent films you've seen. Captain Brave New World versus Conversation Piece. All right, which one's gonna win the fight? I mean, based on filmmaking technique and.
Ryan: Storytelling, Brave New World had. Had. Had the Maga Hulk in it, and he was running around breaking shit. Um, and that film. That film's fucking terrible. That film'fucking awful.
Laura: You think you're gonna watch Maga Hulk for at least 45.2min to an hour of the film.
Ryan: And I'GET it for maybe I'm gonna put it out 90 seconds. Everything you see in the trailer is what's in the film.
Laura: Yep. That's the full extent of Red Hulk.
Ryan: That is it. Um, and he just turnsself in. He just turns himself in and he's in a cage for the rest of the movie. And you're like, we shouldn't see that. What the fuck was that? Who cares? Like, who cares? Cuz like, what would. What was the end credit scene like? It was. There's something going to happen. He is going to come. There is going to be bad stuff cut to black. You're like, fuck off. Fucking Marvel needs to just put itself in the bin. Like just pick itself up. Go to the fucking waste trash can and just put yourself in it and close the door and lock it up and throw it in the fucking ocean. You have fucked up Royal. Everything is shit.
Laura: Like the Professor. We will close the door on this episode.
Ryan: We will.
Laura: Of conversation piece.
Ryan: And what if the professor turned into Red Hulk, like at the end of this?
Laura: Like, he just opens his eyes and they're red and you go. And then cut to black and he.
Ryan: Like really ha up the fact that like, he's dealing with like a lot of angst and pain like Harson Ford did in the movie.
Laura: Because everything you wanted to.
Ryan: Oh my Jo. He's like gripping his head.
Laura: You want to renovate my upstairs apartment here? Smash.
Ryan: And then yeah, just stuff like that, like really ham up. You know what I mean? Like really Lou feignno that shit. Just get it done.
Laura: Well, I'm still gonna close the door on this conversation piece and uh, remember to find us on letterbox. Find us on Instagram.
Ryan: That's what we should do from now on is we should do oryaion. Compare your latest with your greatest.
Laura: I can do that.
Ryan: Yeah. That was maybe the. That's the only time that's ever going to be compared is when we do Captain America, Brave New World and fucking Lucino Visconti's conversation piece in the same conversation. And that was amazing.
Laura: Um, coming to you from an unhlked out Roman palazzo.
Ryan: I have been Laura, they are killing me. Said the bird.
Laura: Said the bird.
Ryan: Although here's the thing. I'm gonna put this on at the end. This is fine. But I did like the point where you can hear the bird going, they're killing me. They're killing me. They're killing me. And then that was like. That drew into the flashback where you could hear the maid going, delay Lee, delay le. And then I was like, you know what? I really fucking like that. I think that's really fucking good. I think that was a very clever piece of filmmaking right there.
Laura: Giving someone, uh, an animal as, uh.
Ryan: A no, because a horrible idea because technique, they just. They kind of feaded it to one another. I thought was just really. I thought it was really clever. Anyway, you're killing me with this cow.
Laura: Chow, chow, chow.
00:59:21