Your official Valentine's episode has arrived! Make way for Paul Verhoeven's FLESH + BLOOD!
DA DUM DA DUM DA DUM! Heed the sound of the Valentine's drums for the ultimate date night movie!
Not really. We're slap bang in the middle of 16th Century Europe where violence and assault run rampant across these lawless lands. Mercenaries are storming castles and war is rife in the region. This is the landscape of Paul Verhoeven's fantasy/romance/drama: FLESH + BLOOD.
It's definitely an oddly placed film that's home is undetermined for an audience. Its lack of success when it was released is evidence of that. It's a bit messy. It's a bit uncomfortable. It's a bit uninspiring. If you remember anything from this mess, there are these four words: LIGHTNING STRIKE DOG COLLAR!
Unmasking the Dark Ages: A Deep Dive into Flesh and Blood
Laura: Well, hello there. Welcome to On the BiTTE the podcast that uncovers full frontal male dudity in cinema.
Ryan: D uh, d d uh, thank you for that, uh, uh, beautiful music. Uh.
Laura: My name is Laura and I am joined by my valentine Ryan with a beautiful introduction. Yeah, nice tones.
Ryan: Sir Valentine, welcome to the Dark Ages.
Laura: Exactly. Because that is where our 1985 romantic historical adventure film Flesh and Blood is based. Directed by our favorite Paul Verhoeven and starring Rutger Hauer, Jennifer Jason Lee, Tom Burlinson, amongst other people. Happy birthday, Tom Burlinson. Valentine's days, his birthday. Oh, our sweet Stephven.
Ryan: Good. Good for him. Um, for being in this thing, um.
Laura: In this motion picture.
Ryan: Yes, the story of the lawless lands of Western Europe. Um, yeah, well, it's a movie.
Laura: The synopsis of this film is a band of medieval mercenaries take revenge on a noble lord who decides not to pay them by kidnapping the betrothed of the nobles son. As the plague and warfare cut a swath of destruction throughout the land, the mercenaries hole up in a castle and await their fate. The tagline is betrayed by power, corrupted by love, bound by honor.
Ryan: Right, okay.
Laura: No one has honor. Yeah, there is no honor in this story.
Ryan: Probably the same tagline for the never ending story. It's u. Uh, yeah, there's. Well, there's no honor among these thieves anyway. But there's also. Yeah, it's the Dark ages. No one's nice to anyone here. Everyone's a bastard. If with anything we've learned is that, that everyone's a bastard back then. I mean even now, everyone's a bastard. We're all bastards.
Laura: We are humankindy.
Ryan: Yeah, we're all just nasty, nasty people doing nasty things. We just, you know, we just pretend and say we've got laws and stuff to prevent us from doing those nasty things anymore. You know, it's the fucking dark Ages, Laura.
Laura: Okay?
Ryan: Everyone's a bad bastard. Just going around and being bad.
Laura: Yeah, I mean this is a rapey film. Did you know this film was shot by Jan Debont?
Ryan: Um, no, I mean you couldn't tell.
Laura: But um, yeah, they'been working together since the 70s. He shot Turkish Delight in the fourth man. Amongst other things.
Ryan: Yeah, no, I mean that's, that's fineus. Um, Jan Deontn didn't shoot because he goes from flesh and blood to basically doing Robocop pretty much. And it's a differ cinematographer for Robocop and also for um, Total Recall as well. Because Total Recall comes straight after Robocop too.
Laura: So what A beautiful two movies, not including this one.
Ryan: No, there's a. I have problems with this film. Some real problems.
Laura: Well, instead of talking about problems, why don't you talk about Paul Verhoveven?
Ryan: Well, Paul, I don't know. Could we refer to him as a problem? He's a problematic character, Don.
Laura: Is he?
Ryan: I think so.
Laura: I don't think so. I think he's a good boy.
Ryan: Um, okay.
Laura: With a dark mind.
Ryan: So Paul Verhoveven is a Dutch film director. Um, his films are known for graphic violence, sexual content, and social satire.
Laura: Hooray.
Ryan: I think that that sums up relatively pretty well. Um, um, if we haven't said this already, Flesh and Blood was his first Hollywood film, so it's his first full English speaking Hollywood movie. And it's, uh, a. Yeah, it's a, it's a, it's a thing. Um, um, but let's just get into his filmography. It's quite extensive because he's been making films since the 1950s. Uh, here's a bunch of his shorts. Cups of coffee from 59. One lizard too many in 1960. Nothing special in 61. The hitchhikers in 62. Let's have a party in 63. Marine Corps 65, and the wrestler in 71. Now this is when we start getting into his features. A lot of these will become very familiar to people. Uh, businesses. Business from 71. Turkish Delight from 73. Um, I'm gonna. I'm gonna fuck this one up. Keat g tipple
00:05:00
Ryan: from 75. I am so sorry if that is wrong. Soldier of orange from 77. Spets from 1980. All things pass in 81. The forth man from then we have Flesh and blood in 85, which is our birth year. So maybe Happy birthday to us. Happy birthday to us. Uh, RoboCop from 1987. Total Recall 1990. Basic Instinct, 1992. Now think about that. Like that. Those three films in a row.
Laura: Amazing.
Ryan: That's pretty crazy. Um, unfortunately, then we have showgirls from 95.
Laura: That's not unfortunate. Um, that's a wonderful film.
Ryan: It is a cult classic. We'll talk about that in a second. Uh, starship troopers from 97. Hollo man from 2000, Black Book from 2006, Tricked from 2012, El from 2016, and then Benedetta from 2021. So I think pretty much after Hollow man, he kind of goes back to his native roots and starts, uh, making films back in Europe. Um, which is probably a good idea. Probably. Um, because most of those films that came out after Hollow man. Were actually relatively quite decent. Um, the only other kind of tidbit that I have here is that he's one of the few people to accept his own Golden Raspberry Award in person.
Laura: Adorable. For showgirls.
Ryan: For showgirls. Um, and obviously, you know, back in the day was. It was torn the fuck apart. But if you get with the right people and you watch Showgirls with an audience now, it's a pretty fun time.
Laura: It's wonderful.
Ryan: It is exactly what it was designed to be. So that is cinema.
Laura: Well, Paul Verhoeven called this the worst shoot of his life. Uh, the script is partially based on unused material from Verhoen's debut television series, Flors, which also starred Rutgerr Hauer. That was his debut.
Ryan: Right.
Laura: And very similarly set in the early 16th century during the Gelders wars, which, you know, if you want a history lesson, it's a series of conflicts in the Low Countries between the Duke of Burgundy and Charles, Duke of Gelters.
Ryan: Right. O.
Laura: And this is the flesh and blood is the last time that Verhoeven and Rutkerhauer work together.
Ryan: Yes.
Laura: Bummer.
Ryan: Yeah. Because he was in Turkish Delight in Soldier of Orange, if I remember correctly.
Laura: Worked together five or six times before Ye and Richer Howueer had just kind of finished working on Blade Runner, and he wanted to start a reputation of playing a good guy, which obviously differed from Verhoeven's intention.
Ryan: Uh, because there's no good people in this movie at all, really. Even the women who are being hideously exploited the entire time. I even have my doubts of whether or not they are good people either.
Laura: Correct.
Ryan: Uh, it is. It'hard. It's really hard to get your talons into this thing because everyone is so deliberately unlikable. Even the people that you know you're meant to follow, you're just like, ah, fuck, this person's an asshole.
Laura: Yeah.
Ryan: And the thing is, the only reason you like Rut Gerhauer is because it's Rut Gehaueruse. He's so incredibly, like, he's cheeky. He's kind of got like, a nod and a wink about him in the film as well.
Laura: Even when he's raping.
Ryan: Even.
Laura: I'm just kidding. That was really unpleasant.
Ryan: It's incredibly unpleasant. It's very uncomfortable. And obviously, you know, it's meant to be. It's not meant to be sexy. Um, but at the same time, you're kind of just like. It's a. It's a lot to take, and it's a lot going on and you're kind of just like, yeah, there he goes again. There they all go again. Basically.
Laura: Um, yeah, uh, Verhoeven he wanted to portray Martin's character specifically and most of the characters moral ambiguity. And he wanted to show the Middle Ages as a qu. Stinking time in which to live because he wanted to distance it from typical medieval fantasy depictions. You know, he didn't want a sword and sorcery type of thing.
Ryan: It does make sense. Like, does makes sense to kind of bring it down to slightly more brutal, uh, I guess like a more honest depiction of what these times would be like. But I think there's another reason why there isn't a lot of depictions like this is because's it has to be incredibly unflinching and you're kind of. You're kind of left watching something where you're just like, oh my God, this is, this is fucking brutal. This is horrendous. And it never really lets up. Like the film just kind of starts, but it never really stops and it'it's. Effectively unrelenting. And for me it's like, it's
00:10:00
Ryan: also. It doesn't really come down to the violence either because if the film was a little bit more violent and I don't know, I think I'm maybe a little bit more desensitized, I think I probably would enjoy it a little bit more. I find the violence in it to be tamed by Verhoeven standards.
Laura: Yeaheah. I guess if you had a little bit more of that ultra violent, bloody gory stuff. Because when that stuff happens, it is a treat, which is horrible to say, but it's almost like a reprieve from.
Ryan: Just the brutal honesty of sexual assault, effectively.
Laura: Yah.
Ryan: Um, and it's like group sexual assault, you know, it's not. It's like a gang. There's a gang of them, gang of mercenaries doing horrible fucking stuff. And I mean, I like, I like depictions of like this time. Like I'm interested in media that does this. You have. You have to be riveted by the story in order for you to kind of get past the fact that a lot horrible stuff's going on, you know, And I just, I don't know if flesh and blood really, really is that intriguing or that engaging enough for you to be like, oh, I can understand what's going on. You know, it's just not. Yeah, it's just. It's painfully uninteresting at point, so.
Laura: Well, Verhoeven did not storyboard the film. He wanted to attempt to achieve a looser visual approach. But there was a lot of delays and disagreements that followed. Just kind of due to the improvisational style of how they were filming it and because they didn't have a good hold on that, a lot of the members of the cast and crew would just like come and go as they pleased and be partying on the beach and stuff. So there it was just kind of raucous and.
Ryan: Well, the problem is that kind of translates to how. I mean, I would say it's a little bit banal. Like the way it looks, like it doesn. It doesn't strike you is anything but. Yeah, it really borders on. Is this a poor kind of like renssance fair, sort of like medieval, like festival, uh, cosplay party? It points where you're kind of just like. You're grasping at straws to be like, does this film look good or am I just. Is it okay? Because it's like. Well, it's Jennifer Jason Lee and it's Rut Gerhauueer, so it'obviously. There's some money behind it, but I mean, I think I find the film to be visually kind of banal for the most part. I find it just a little bit visually dry. That's what I would say.
Laura: I wonder if you should blame Y Jan for that.
Ryan: I think if Y is at the helm of the cinematography for this, I could have put the blame squarely on Verhoveven for the choice of trying to be more loose and fast and stuff with it. Because there has to be. Because there's some set pieces in the film and I mean, there's not enough of them personally. But you can tell from the way that they've tried to do it that I just don't think they've pulled it off particularly well. M. You know, so it's like this improvisational thing which also kind of comes back to like, everyone has a different accent in the film as well.
Laura: It is a multi country European bonanza.
Ryan: Yeah. Because like, you've got someone who's obviously got like a German affect to their voice, who's then acting against someone who's straight out of fucking Brooklyn. You're just. And you're just like, whoa, hold on. And then obviously Rutger Howr's got a very distinctive voice as well, and you're just like, what the.
Laura: I know on. I know that that caused a problem for a lot of people, but it didn't bother me that much.
Ryan: Well, it's because it's in a Time where that wasn't really the square, like, square consideration. Like, there's plenty of films that are, you know, that are, you know, European. I mean, I would. I would. I would look at like, Wrath of God or something like the. The Verner Herz sog movies. If you want something that's a little bit more in keeping with, um, a little bit more of reality than I would say look at those films that he's made. Because they are, they're just. They're more. They're more interesting. This is kind of more meant to be a little bit more digestible to a Western audience. That's why the whole thing's in English. And, you know, it's got some recognizable faces in it and you're like, okay, U. I guess we'll just mix these accents together and we'll just worry about it later.
Laura: As you can imagine, the story is
00:15:00
Laura: that we see on the screen is definitely not the original story that he had in mind that was written.
Ryan: Oh, really? Okay.
Laura: Because when Orion picked up the film, they quickly requested a love interest. There was no Jennifer jasont Lee character in the film. There was no female lead. There was no romance. This was a medieval adventure epic film.
Ryan: Right. So it kind of. It needed. Need. It needs to make money. So they have to put some. I mean, again, there's maybe too many boobies and there's even like an odd number of boobies.
Laura: True.
Ryan: You'll see like the odd booby as opposed to like a pair of boobies, you know, just kind of hanging around.
Laura: So, um, the original story focused on the relationship between Hawkwood and Martin. That was the original story. That's pretty cool.
Ryan: Like, that's kind of interestinge at the very least. Like, I like a rivalry.
Laura: Yeah.
Ryan: They're the two most interesting characters in the entire film.
Laura: Oh, yeah, absolutely. Steven sucks.
Ryan: Steven is the worst. Yeah, he's like a fucking dumbass inventor, um, doing dumbass things. He's incredibly unlikable for whatever it is. Just he's not.
Laura: If it's his like, baby face or something, I just.
Ryan: I punchable face again. This filmthday. This film kind of borders on having, like, having, you know, because you want distinctive uglies in your film that's set in the medieval, like the Dark Ages. Like, you want people to feel distinctive for the time because no one should be pretty. If they're pretty, then technically it's like, oh, no, they're a target. So you're like, uh, oh, um, here comes Root Ger. Um, but the thing is, is like it's just. Yeah, it's just, it's terribly imbalance where it's just like I want my grave faced, wrinkly connacter actors filling up the screen, you know, like in the Name of the Rose, like that sort of thing, you know, where you've got like a bunch and it just makes it feel a little bit more authentic. Um, but yeah, just he's just not, he's not interesting. And when he becomes the center of the story where he's like, o, I need to save this girl I've met once. Um, you know, this whole thing, you're just like, ah, like I'm just again, you're just not interested enough. It's like I'd rather should just ended up with Ruter Howard at the end, to be honest.
Laura: No.
Ryan: Well, I mean it would make more sange than, you know, Sage. Um, it would make more sense.
Laura: I disagree because obviously he's a rapist covered in the plague. But the sensible option would just be to go with Stepven because he has money and he's clean and he's not a rapist.
Ryan: Well, he also makes gadgets.
Laura: Yeah, well, we will I'sure we, well, get into the anachronisms of the film in a bit.
Ryan: Oh boy.
Laura: But, uh, Paul, uh, Verhooveven did say that because of the change in the film how now the love triangle is now the main storyline. In retrospect, he said, I think we should have stuck with Haockkwood and Martin. The failure of Flesh and Blood was a lesson for me. Never again compromise on the main storyline of a script. Fair.
Ryan: That is very good advice to heed. Be like, I would be interested in what it is. But then it's like you're just watching a bunch of men do a bunch of horrible fucking things to each other.
Laura: Well, now we can watch a bunch of men do a bunch of horrible things to women. Great.
Ryan: Well, I don't think, I don't think. Well, that's the thing. Like, I think all of that stuff is still in the original, his original story. You just don't have like a love interest because he's just focusing on the brutalism of all. Um, so, you know, then, then the women are so poorly underrepresented in the film because I mean, this is, this is Verhoeven t like he, this is, this is what he does. Like he does this in films. You know, his female characters aren't particularly well represented. They feel exploited and for the most part they're there as candy because of the way that he shows his, his uh, uh, the sexuality and the sexual content in these movies. So you shouldn't be coming into a Paul Verhoeven movie thinking, fuck, yeah, here we go. The women are going toa be represented and they're, they're gonna have a voice because that's not really the case at all.
Laura: Well, Jennifer, Jason Lee has defended this film quite a bit and is vehemently opposed to censorship sensorship.
00:20:00
Laura: So I don't know, she was really excited about this.
Ryan: That's fine. I mean, she really has to go above and beyond in this film though. That's the thing. Like she really has to go. And this films we're gonna have a lot of conversations when we get to the scene itself, like when we start talking about balance because oh my gosh, the balance is like so viewed in one direction that it's not even funny. Um, but like, it's good. I mean it's good for her. Like JJL'allowed to, uh, she's allowed to defend whatever. I just don't. She's not, she's just not an interesting character in this. And you kind of like, you question her like moral judgment and certainly like when you first meet her, she's incredibly naive and she's very young and she's, she's effectively like. Because, you know, the way those characters are portrayed in films like this, she's a bargaining piece to, you know, for deals between families and stuff and their money and like how the, how families get richer and all this sort of thing. So you're not exactly, you're not exactly blessed with um, um, any sense of. Well, yeah, any sense of uh, choice. Yeah, you're just kind of like, oh, here you go, here's the bargaining piece. You'll love her. It's like it's an arranged marriage already, all this sort of shit. And it's like, okay. And you already know how terrible the father is by this point anyway because he's double crossed the mercen Aries. Um, and you're just. Yeah, it's just, you're like, okay, well, let's see where this goes.
Laura: I guess before, well, before jjl, as you called her was cast, two other people were considered for the part. One of them, as always, Natasha Kinski. Shes always around.
Ryan: Yeah. M. Well, unfortunately theyre just like, yeah, Natasha will do it.
Laura: And uh, Rebecca De Mornay. But Rebecca De Mornay was rejected because she demanded that her boyfriend be cast a stepven who was at the time Tom Cruise.
Ryan: Holy shit. Yeahu um, well, when was Legend legend was 84. 85, maybe. Legend.
Laura: Yeah, maybe he was busy.
Ryan: Yeah, he might have been busy because blade runner is 82.
Laura: Um, he was 85. So they probably would have been.
Ryan: They would have.
Laura: It was one or the other.
Ryan: Was either one or the other. Yeah. Well, he's better off in Legend, let's be honest. Um, Legend is a little bit more interesting, I think a project than uh, than Flesh and Blood. But um, yeah, that would have been. What a sight.
Laura: I know, right?
Ryan: Holy shit.
Laura: Um, I would rather have had my boyfriend at the time, whoever that was, be playing Martin's role because that's who she spends all over time with. Mhm.
Ryan: Think. I think to. Yeah, but then you need, you need a Ro Grerau style person in that, in that role for that character. I think, like, because he has, there's a menace about him, but there's also like a kind of weird charm.
Laura: Yeah.
Ryan: And it's like Rutger Howard is actually very good at that. Like he's very good at doing that sort of character. So. Yeah. I don't know. I don't know. Well, uh, yeah, I'm always interested in these, these differing casting decisions you always bring up for this thing. And it's just like. Yeah, I don't know if they, I don't think they would have improved the film, so. Yeah, I really don't think they would have.
Laura: No, I think it's just fine. I mean, massive, absolutely insane cast. It's a huge amount of people.
Ryan: It's pretty stacked. Yeah.
Laura: Uh, you know, apparently people were just throwing elbows the whole time just to get like a little bit of screen time because there were so many people.
Ryan: Yeah. And you can kind of tell that they're doing that.
Laura: I think they're physically doing it a lot during the film.
Ryan: Yeah, it's kind of like, uh, a. Yeah, it's like. It's like watching the inside of a frat boy locker room for like two hours. Like it's pretty, it's pretty relentless with just like how much bullshittery you're kind of having to witness. Um, and the women are just as bad or at least like, I don't mean this badly, but like all the women in this mercenary group are all effectively prostitutes and whores. That's pretty much itit.
Laura: I mean that's kind of what they.
Ryan: Had to do and that's what they had to do probably to survive.
Laura: Yeah. In this group of men.
Ryan: In this group of very nasty looking men. Yes, yes. We will get to the positives of stuff that we do like eventually, but it's kind of like. It's like when the very crux of, like, what you're showing us and then the story itself doesn't really hold up.
00:25:00
Ryan: It's kind of difficult for it to hold the weight of everything that's going on and for you to really, like, either attach yourself to any characters or even really care what's going on. And it's. Yeah, it just gets a little bit difficult to, like, handle at a certain point.
Laura: Yeah.
Ryan: You know.
Laura: Well, the film basically opens with a title card that just says Western Europe 1501.
Ryan: It does.
Laura: Which we are calling it, uh, a Middle Ages.
Ryan: This is the best shot in the film.
Laura: Oh, my goodness. There'some really pretty shots.
Ryan: The best shot in the film because it just. It starts in the clouds, it tilts down, it jibs back, it. It tracks back. It's this war scene. There's explosions going off, people are dying. And then it frames up with the priest giving the, uh, whatever it is, blessing the soldiers before they go into battle, basically. And that's all in one shot. And I think that's pretty good. There should have been more of that. Um, but there wasn't.
Laura: That's a shame.
Ryan: But it all gets better the minute Rutgerharer comes out fucking rocking a spy hander and he's just. He's ready just to fucking bust some skulls.
Laura: Is this when he's snacking on that Eucharist bread?
Ryan: What, you mean the blessing? Yeah.
Laura: Like Ruter Howueer comes up and he gets all the little Eucharist, the body of Christ out of the bowl and hes just munching on him.
Ryan: Yes.
Laura: And I do want to point out that this is at least the era that we'in were meant to be in. 1501, as the start of the Renaissance and kind of the end. End of the late Middle Ages. This is also the beginning of the second wave of the bubonic plague, because they'd already had one in the early. In the 14th century. So now we're in the 16th century and we're doing it all over again. So they're already from. Well, uh, I'm sure that they don't remember, obviously, but you know that there's stories of the plague and I'm sure there's m. A lot of literature.
Ryan: Yeah.
Laura: That would have been written about iteah. They are trying to take back a city that was taken by a coup from the original ruler, Arnold Fey.
Ryan: Is this all real or is this just stuff you're taking from the story.
Laura: This is stuff I'm taking from the story, right?
Ryan: Oay.
Laura: Hawkwood. I believe it's based on an actual person, but the person was only alive in the 1300s.
Ryan: Oay.
Laura: So Hawwood is also placed out of time. Okay, but that's okay. A lot of things are placed out of time.
Ryan: Yeah, let'let's. Not trouble ourselves too much with, uh, that.
Laura: I mean, I'm going to. Okay, not by Hawkwood. But Hawkwood's leading the troops to help take uh, back the city. And he promises everyone 24 hours of looting if they can help him take the city. And they do, because they love that. Looting, raping, pillaging.
Ryan: They do love themselves a little bit of violence and rapee, it seems.
Laura: And of course, when they succeed, I guess it's arnoldfini decides to kick the troops and the mercenaries out of the city without paying them.
Ryan: Yes. They made a terrible faux pa. You.
Laura: Can'T do that to these crazy people. These people are insane. You can't be like, oh jk, get the fuck out. Because they're insane and they're gonna come back and get you. Which is what happens.
Ryan: Their primary occupation is war. Thats the thing is, like, I wouldnt fuck with them. Um, Their primary occupation is war. Um, but the thing is. Yeah, no, I mean it's u. Yeah, it's uh. Yeah, it's stupid.
Laura: Oay.
Ryan: It's stupid.
Laura: And the anachronism that I'm going to bring up right now are the cannons that they're using are actually 19th century parrot guns used during the American Civil War.
Ryan: Boom.
Laura: Boom. Um, quite a bit at of time.
Ryan: You're fucking up all over the place. Historically, Paul, it'quite a few.
Laura: I mean, one thing they did get right was the statue of St. Martin that they found after they had to flee.
Ryan: Yeah. They found it in the ground and then they buried the baby.
Laura: Yeah.
Ryan: Ca. Because no, no wonder she fucking gave birth to like a stillbirth or something. She was constantly drinking.
Laura: Yeah, well, constantly. There was many rules to motherhood back then, I don't think. Not as much as there are.
Ryan: It was lawless. But anyway, yes, they did. They did that baby sc. Jesus fucking Christ. It's like. And just. It's this a shot of rot or har. Basically stuffing a rubber mold into like a little barrel. And you're like. You're like, what? My watch.
Laura: I don't even know what the point of that was. It's the very beginning of the film. She's pregnant. Why? Uh, because you wanted to show that they all have sex with each other.
Ryan: Cool.
Laura: But you don't really need to have a stillborn baby in the very beginning
00:30:00
Laura: of the film.
Ryan: Do not.
Laura: And it's that they never talk about again.
Ryan: They never talk about it again. He just drops the thing and puddle and it's like okay.
Laura: She just like um, she shrugs it off and they continue living their lives pretty much.
Ryan: Yeah.
Laura: I mean it's probably par for the chorus. It's pretty common, I'm sure.
Ryan: But it might not have been her first child. I mean one of them had a child, like an actual child. Um, and he obviously barar witness to all of this debauchery as well and banging his drum and stuff. What m a time to be alive. But um, yeah, no, I found that. Found that moment in the film just like what the fuck? Because it's obviously like. But yeah, it's just a terrible like uncomfortable moment because it's like it's very obviously fake and it's justah. It's just kind of. Well, it's like bit very fake. It's like rubbery like the baby from.
Laura: That American Sniper movie kind of.
Ryan: Ye kinda um, you know, it's kind of like if Jim Carrey was giving it and they. He would really ham it up a fair amount like trying to put it in there of it's kind of that bad. But yeah, it'it's. Uh. Some.
Laura: After this we get to meet Jennifer Jason Lee who is um. I don't know what her birth uh, lineage is, but I know that she's wealthy and she's gonna get married to Stepven.
Ryan: Yeah. And well, since she's in addition to the original story, her backstory is incredibly like short and uninteresting. She's dressed well, she's rich and she's gonna. Yeah, she's gonna marry Steen Stepvenen. Don't fight Stephven. Fighting is for fools.
Laura: And you know her lady in waiting, there is a moment where she Jennifer Jason Lee or Agnes, sorry asks her lady and waiting her maid servant, um, friend to go have sex with one of the soldiers that are kind of watching and helping uh, their caravan as they go along. M She's really interested in watching her friend have sex with a soldier to.
Ryan: Find out what it's all about.
Laura: Right.
Ryan: Um. And yeah, she kinda comes across a little bit like a spoiled bitch for the most part. And then obviously her. Her less than endearing u uh, made as well. U um, yeah, it's a weird. It's a weird moment. It's an odd moment.
Laura: Do you know who that handmaiden is?
Ryan: I guess you'll tell me.
Laura: Nancy Cartwright, the voice of Bart Simpson.
Ryan: Oh, Jesus. Oh, fuck. Well, onto bigger, better things, I guess.
Laura: Voice of Bart Simpson. You see her boobs in this motion picture? She was also in the Twilight Zone movie.
Ryan: Okay, well, uh, no, that's fine.
Laura: That's fin where Jennifer. Jason Lee's father was murdered, by the way. So weird connection between those two.
Ryan: It'a very weird connection. Yeah. Well, I knew one of us was going to bring up the helicopter moment.
Laura: We always have to anytime we can continangentially relate anything to the Twilight Zone movie. Yeah.
Ryan: Ah, like you cant speak about the film without talking about the fact that someone. Fuck. They fucking killed them during the course of the making of that movie.
Laura: And this is when we have Agnes and Stephven meet for the first time and he finds out that he is betrothed to this girl. He didnt realize. He is so annoying. He keeps calling himself like a scientist. He'interested in science. Another anachronism that was not a phrase that was coined until the late 19th century at uh, best, he would have called himself something like a natural philosopher.
Ryan: Because when was Da Vinci? Because that's kind of the. He was kind of like, ah, a Da Vincique.
Laura: Well, he mentions Da Vinci in a book that he wrote that wasn't published until 1505.
Ryan: Oh, dear.
Laura: Another anachronism. So he wouldn't even have known that this book existed at this time.
Ryan: ###Eah even at 1505 when it was first published, it would be unlikely for, um, him to even know that book existed either.
Laura: It wasn't on the, uh, bestseler shelves on the high street in 1501.
Ryan: Okay, well, this is when they meet at, uh, the foot of, uh, a couple of hanged corpses at a tree.
Laura: I absolutely love it. It's so disgusting. I love this part.
Ryan: This bit is actually pretty good. It looks awesome after the drivel that we've just been subjected to. Um, but yeah, she's like digging for the man drke, which is obviously,
00:35:00
Ryan: if anyone is familiar with their lore. Unless you're desperate to talk about it.
Laura: Mandrakes are rumored to grow from the dripping fat and blood and semen of hanged men. The ancient Greeks used it as anesthetic for surgery and an aphrodisiac, steeping the root in wine or vinegar. Mandrake is known as the love apple of the ancients and is associated with the Greek goddess of love, Aphrodite. There's also that rumor because they, the roots can look humanoid, that if you are a, ah, human to physically pull it out of the ground, its scream will like drive you mad.
Ryan: Yeahah.
Laura: So there are also, there's also lore about how men instead would put wax in their ears and then tie a string to the mandrake and tie the other end to a dog and the dog would pull it out and the man could be far enough away so the screams wouldn't kill him.
Ryan: Okay, that's cool. Um, yeah, I always thought them as the underground root baby screaming things from Harry Potter. Yes, from, from, uh, from. Yes, from, from cool lore. Shit. Um, I refer to it as the kami turnip.
Laura: Typically. That's what you would.
Ryan: That's what I call it.
Laura: That's what you called it even yesterday.
Ryan: Before you rewatch this film, pretty much walking around, pretty much talking about the coming turnip. He says when a man is hanged, he comes. That's where your mandrake sprouts said Stepven.
Laura: He's.
Ryan: Thank you, Stepven.
Laura: That is the lore.
Ryan: Fucking scientists. Stephen. Um, yeah, I, I mean the minute, the minute I start hearing like there's come anywhere near whatever, anything I'm gonna put in my mouth, I'm like, nah, I'm good, thank you. I'll. I'll leave it alone. Um, um, but at least like that seems cool and interesting because they're trying to. They're having a conversation and it's obviously like, like the frame is clouded by like a rotting foot or like the central area of whatever's been eating away at this person who's hanging off of the tree, which I find quite interesting.
Laura: For whatever reason, it's a beautiful juxtaposition between love and death, beginnings and endings.
Ryan: Cinema.
Laura: Wow.
Ryan: Yeah.
Laura: Well, she tells them that if they share the root of the mandrake that they will be in love forever. M and they do. He thinks it's silly, but she believes it.
Ryan: Well, he's a realist. That's the thing. He doesn't believe in fantasy because he is grounded in wherever they would call science back then. Um, he likes himself some gadgets. Philophy philosophy, I suppose. Yes.
Laura: Um, it does go downhill from here pretty quickly because their caravan gets raided by those mercenaries that were wronged.
Ryan: Yeah.
Laura: And if I'm not mistaken, Agnes ends up hiding in the carriage and they steal the carriage. Right. That's how she ends up back there.
Ryan: Yeah, yeah. And then obviously what ensues is a horrible, um, gang raping scene.
Laura: It's the weirdest gang rape scene you've ever seen. Because everyone wants to get in there. And she is doing her best to avoid it, obviously. But then Ritger Howard decides he wants to take her for himselves. But the whole group of mercenary pals hold her up in the air m as he goes to town while standing up.
Ryan: Well, don't forget they all spit his hand.
Laura: Oh, yeah. Oh, they. Oh, yeah. Oh, God. Oh, I forgot. I forgot. Yeah, it s. And he's wearing like, um, like a glove.
Ryan: Yeah. Isn't this the bit as well where, like, we see the two gay guys and he's like one of them stroking the other one's ear while this is happening?
Laura: Those are the only two characters in the film that remain loyal to each other. This. Those two men that are in a relationship, one with the New York accent.
Ryan: Yeah, no, get. We'll get to that moment where he starts talking because holy mother of Christ, it'so fucking weird.
Laura: Also disgusting during this particular scene where all the women are. When they find Agnes, all the women are just screaming, rapper. Rapper.
Ryan: Well, it feel likeling is PA part of like this indoctrination, like procedure where that's how these women have ended up into this group anyway. And that's. That's just. That's just it. Like, they'they're indoctrinated and they've been. What is it where you. You start to fall in love with your. Your abuser?
Laura: Stockholm
00:40:00
Laura: Syndrome.
Ryan: It's basically that, you know, it's like.
Laura: It'S a survival thing's survival. That's exactly it. It's a way to survive. Which is why when Ricker Howueer ends up getting her on the ground and he's doing the rape, she's like, you're nevernna hurt me. I like this. And it's just a defense mechanism against the pain and the trauma that she's ensuing. And there's a point where she kind of wraps her legs around his backside and all the girls are like, oh, look, Martin's getting rapedeah. Uh, horrible. But there was some kind of backlash about that scene after the movie came out because people are going, you're depicting someone enjoying being raped. And he's like, that's obviously not what was going on. That's not the point. The point is that it's like a power struggle. I'm putting words into his mouth. Buteah, uh, pretty m much from my perspective, she is just trying to defend herself. You see that in movies. There's a scene in the Outlander show where this guy throughout the whole series is always trying to rape somebody. And a uh, defense mechanism that one of the women uses is to just laugh at him and mock him. And she got away with it, you know?
Ryan: Yeah.
Laura: Women. I don't know. Needs must.
Ryan: Yes. Let's move away from the raping for a second.
Laura: I'NOT gonna move too far away. Hold on, I have one more thing to say. So Jennifer Jason Lee has said that she hates censorship of any sort. She said Flesh and Blood is a very violent film but they not only cut some of the rape scene, but they also had to lose some of the lovek making scene. She said, I find it so odd that it'all right to show people being blown to pieces but not making love. And she said it's a hard scene to watch. Brutal and ugly as rape is. I know it's going to upset a lot of people, but the film is extraordinary. Paul Verhoveen is so gifted.
Ryan: That'what she said. Yeah.
Laura: I mean he called her, he called her a trooper. The stuff that she had to go through, like, because that scene was set at night, it couldn't be a closed set and it was outside. So there's just tons of light and tons of crew. And it was a very open and probably quite raw experience for her that day, that night.
Ryan: Yeah. So her, her character development is interesting during the course of the film because she just kind of goes from one horrible man to another horrible man and just a string of horrible men instances that just kind of. Yeah, it's just, it's rough. And I just wanted to move away from this because it is the least interesting parts of the film is all the brutalism, all the raping is so unfucking interesting.
Laura: Yeah, it's disgusting. The mercenaries take a castle.
Ryan: They do.
Laura: The castle hasn't been infected by the plague at this point. Right. Like it's just a castle and they kind of get rid of all the people. Or was their plague in the castle?
Ryan: This is where I start to have some issues because they're obviously because remember there's the mother or the maid who takes the child and jumps off the ramparts. They're like, no, we'll keep it. Then she just jumps off the ramparts and kills herself.
Laura: Mhm.
Ryan: That child had the plague. So there would have been sheets, there would have been instances where she would have been infecting people in the castle at this point because that's how the plague would have worked. The fact is, is that by the child leaving seemingly for whatever reason, there is uh, they have completely eradicated the play because, like, they must be still sleeping in that bed that she was in.
Laura: Well, also, yeah, they would. The whole place would have been infected because if one person had the plague in there, you know, there's still rats, there's still fleas, there's still the Carriere that would have been around. So, yeah.
Ryan: H m. It'it's just not. It's just. Yeah, because when you. By the time you get to this point, you're kind of just like, well, okay, a lot of this doesn't really make sense. Then maybe I can just, like, suspend. Have a suspension of disbelief and just enjoy it for what it is. And you're like, well, it does get.
Laura: Kind of fun at this point, though.
Ryan: It does, yeah.
Laura: When you have, like, the final siege.
Ryan: When shit starts to get real, then. Yeah. When it starts to get really silly, you just kind of wish. O, I wish most of it was silly before we get to this point.
Laura: Right.
Ryan: Because it's obvious that they were. He was. He's taking the piss at this point where it's just kind of like. It just had to be sillier. And I don't. I don't have an issue with. If you kind of completely forget about the fact that, like, the child had the plague and then Hawkwood ends up getting the plague in the most
00:45:00
Ryan: disgusting fucking way possible.
Laura: Some juicy.
Ryan: O God. He, like, bursts a boil on her back that's on his hand and then he wipes it on his face. It's a bubo'like.
Laura: They're called buboes. You're like, he wipes a popped Boo Boo juice all over space.
Ryan: It's like. It is a moment in the film where I. I'm fucking flabbergasted that it happens. Um, but I'm glad it does because it's ridiculous.
Laura: Yeah.
Ryan: Um. And this I thing, like, a dog ends up getting the plague from drinking the blood that they've. They've been, uh. They've been doing bloodletting, Bloodletting on him. Him. And the dogs drank it. Would that. Would the plague kill the dog or would he just carry the plague?
Laura: These are questions I wish you would have asked me earlier. I would have researched because that's something.
Ryan: That kind of came to my mind when I'm just like, why would the dog die of the plague? He would be carrying the plague. Because it'd be the same as if. Like, if the dog is able to get the plague and die, then why wouldn't rats, who were, uh, carriers off the Plague also get the plague and die. It doesn't really make any sense to me. I think it's just a visual thing. Mean.
Laura: Okay, so from the Internet, right. Dogs are inherently resistant to the plague causing bacteria. Dogs that do become infected with the plague are less likely to show signs of illness than infected cats. But they would get the same type of, uh, same type of symptoms. That dog must have just been a special case, um, where the dog drank the plague blood.
Ryan: He was a movie dog, so. Yeah, I mean he was a movie dog. Anyway, it's. It doesn't make any sense, but they cut this little dog up into pieces. And this is the thing that I like about this film. Not that moment, but I like, like what they do is like. Well, Hawkwood does is like his final revenge because he's. He's effectively dying. Right. Um, although he seems perfectly fine by the end of the film, which is weird. Um, as they start catapulting bits of plague dog into the castle after, you know, because they've tried to siege it and they've blown up the, the Trojan horse tank thing that they built, uh, that Stephen built. And it was pretty crap, let's not lie. Yeah, it was pretty shit. Um, and they blow it up and that's cool. I like explosions for sure. And then they uh, they throw bits of the infected dog meat into the castle.
Laura: Yes. Pretty rad.
Ryan: This is interesting. I mean, I know you and me don't really like dog deaths too much.
Laura: No, I was very sad about that sweet plague puppy.
Ryan: But like, it's not as bad as like in Fear where the fucking dog head comes through the.
Laura: You got to know that dog. That dog was a friend of the family.
Ryan: Get to see that dog.
Laura: We just met this dog.
Ryan: Yeah. And that's when you know, Markie. Mark ain't fucking around if he's chopping the fucking heads off at dogs that hased up that movie. It's actually very good. Um, u. It's better than this one. But um. Um, they are throwing the, the, the meat into the place. Um, Stepven had been captured because he's got, he's got a dog collar on. Steven's been captured and they've been shooting arrows at him and slashing them and all sorts of stuff.
Laura: Yeah. So that was kind of the big interruption of the torture of Stepven was the dog flesh flying in from a catapult. So everyone in the castle is realizing, yo, that's a plague pup. Plague flesh is swinging in like crazy, raining from the skieses. So they take all of their clothes off and burn them to try and avoid getting infected.
Ryan: You have to burn the dog meat and we have to burn our clothing in order for us to. To. And this is. This is the dick scene. This is where we're getting to it.
Laura: 1 hour, 36 minutes and 45 seconds is this dick scene. And the gay couple that we'd mentioned a little bit earlier, the one half of the couple has the New York accent. So he goes. He's kind of on the right side of the screen and he goes to burn his clothes. And he is the only one that's naked.
Ryan: Only one out of everyone to have, like, some kind of underwear on. And it's weird, it looks all this fuck.
Laura: Another anachronism because Rutger Howueer also walks into frame wearing, like a linen thong. Like a codpiece thong.
Ryan: Yeah.
Laura: And linen thongs were not a hot item of undergarment
00:50:00
Laura: during this period.
Ryan: Also, if you're trying to get rid of the plague, you get rid of every single item of clothing. I don't understand why they're still wearing clothes. That's when you have that weird drunken bitch going around. She's got that one tity that's flopping, uh, out, but she's still wearing clothes.
Laura: The underwear they might have been wearing were called brays. Basically, they're like linen shorts or briteches. They're basically shorts that they would wear under their clothes if they wanted to. So, yeah, no, they wouldn't have been wearing underwear like that. So it was basically just a wiener cover up for Rutgerauer.
Ryan: It's just. It's like. It's such like. It's a moment where there's been so much nakedness to this point. Like so much on the women's side.
Laura: Obviously, every single man should have every single person in that crew completely naked. Absolutely. Because you would have been like, I'm gonna die. I'm going to die. I have to if this is gonna save me. Who cares? They've been running around raping each other anyway.
Ryan: They've all seen each other's dicks, They've all seen each other's boobs that they.
Laura: Weren'T taking their clothes off. Absolutely wild.
Ryan: And there's literally.
Laura: Why is there just one?
Ryan: Well, there's not even a moment where the women have a moment to keep their clothes on because the men are just like, oh, I'm gonna suck on those boobs. And like, that happens no more than like five or six times over the course of the movie.
Laura: Yes.
Ryan: And you're just kind of like, Jesus fucking Christ. But yeah, like, it's such a weird moment and it kind of just. It just doesn't make any logical sense. Like, it doesn't make any logical sense.
Laura: If you are stripping down and burning your clothes in order to save your own life. You're not. You have no. You're not holding on to any sense of dignity. You want to survive. So, no, none of them would have been wearing clothes. It's very strange. And they would pret.
Ryan: Stupid.
Laura: You would have wrapped up the end of the movie, everyone run around naked. It would have been awesome.
Ryan: Yeah, pretty much. Or I mean, eventually they could have put new clothes on. Like, I don't see that being a problem. Thing is, like, they could have gone through a whole sterilization process which they didn't really do. They could have just all had all taken their clothes off. There was a bath they could have used. There was all sorts of different things. But like, the shot itself, it's just. It's off the fire, it's relatively quite wide. And you just see sad little Brooklyn boy kind of off on the sides. And it's like. It's like he looks as though a joke has been played on him. He looks as though, well, why am I the only one that's naked and everyone else still has their clothes on? That's what it looks like. And it looks odd as fuck. Like, it just looks weird. And obviously, just before this moment, you hear him in a really thick New Yorker accent go, there's Playague here, you idiot. Yeah, and it's like, oh, Jesus Christ. And like, this is good. Well, he starts. He starts talking more for the last kind of portion of the movie. Then you start to notice, like, oh, my God, everyone has a completely different accent.
Laura: Yeah, his is definitely the most stark out of everybody.
Ryan: Jesus fucking Christ. It is very, very, very interesting.
Laura: We have to mention the hyper fast bubonic plague that we have because people are getting sick left, right and center. A bit of the dog, the plagy dog flesh went into the well.
Ryan: Well, Stephven put it in the well.
Laura: Oh, right.
Ryan: And then he basically gives an ultimatum to JJL and was like, look, this is your choice to be, you know, to figure out whose side you're on. And it's like you have to watch them all drink the water, yet she saves Rut Gerhauer from it. Um, but some of them get the plague within less than a day.
Laura: Oh, like minutes.
Ryan: They're dead within a day. And you're like, whoa, super Plague. It's, uh. Yeah, it's kind of. Yeah. I mean, I'm like, oh, it's kind of unrealistic, but I'm like, you know, this is also a point where we've already seen the, uh, the lightning strike dog call moment where you're just like, okay, that's something like. It's maybe the best moment in the entire fucking movie because you're like, jesus fucking Christ. That was crazy. And I loved it.
Laura: Yeah. Verhooveven said that that was the one part of the film that kind of is the biggest stretch of the imagination. That particular part is, fuck, I want to go crazy. I want to go back to the plague, though, so. Course symptoms of the bubonic plague would typically show between one to seven days. And this is a hyper fast version. Those infected with a plague, they get a fever, headache, chills, weakness, and
00:55:00
Laura: swollen, painful lymph nodes. And they call them buboes in the groin, neck and armpits, which later secreted pus and blood. Uh, the bubonic plague has not been eradicated in our world to this day. There are roughly seven cases every year. But it can be treated with antibiotics.
Ryan: Yeah, safe. Antib.
Laura: Butticss, antibics, Iear ant butts.
Ryan: Antibiotics, Antibiotics. Yeah, it's, um. Yeah, this is some plague they got going on here. But there's like, there's a final battle and, you know, everyone falls in love.
Laura: Totally.
Ryan: Who is expecting to fall in love? Because that's how it was written. And, uh, Rutgerarr survives the whole ordeal.
Laura: For flesh and blood, too.
Ryan: Flesh and blood. To the film that thankfully never came.
Laura: Rip Rudgerauer.
Ryan: Rutgerher is Rip.
Laura: Yeah, isn't he?
Ryan: That'is he? I don't think so.
Laura: Is he? I'm pretty sure he has perished.
Ryan: He is immortal.
Laura: He perished in 2019.
Ryan: Holy shit. Yeah. That's a sh.
Laura: July 19th.
Ryan: Well, yeah, sorry. He's one of my favorites. Rug gear. Love rug gear.
Laura: I have one more little bit of information that I think you might be interested in.
Ryan: I hope so.
Laura: The movie inspired Berserk creator Keintaro Miura. Yeah, Makes sense, uh, that he based the design of the character Guts on Rutger Hower's character, Martin.
Ryan: Makes sense. This is pretty much the opening of the story for the Golden Age arc is watching the beginning of Berserk pretty much. Um, about a band of mercenaries. Plus, Berserk is full of rape, even child rape, all sorts of rape. Um, so, yes, um.
Laura: Jesus.
Ryan: Oh, it's fucking horrible. Anyone who I mean, I like Berserk. Like, I really like Bazserk, but at the same time, you're like, all right, here we go. Also, Ken, Ye can to Miura has also passed away. Yeah.
Laura: Uh, he passed away recently, didn't he?
Ryan: Yeah, within the last last couple of years. And people were infiated. They were like. Didn't finish before you finish your book?
Laura: 2021?
Ryan: Pretty much, yeah. So he's. There's. There's people. He had apprentices and stuff. They're still. They're still churning out chapters to this day based on the notes that he had. So, you know, you'll see. You'll see a finality to that book eventually. You know, people need to see the conclusion of the rivalry between Guts and, uh, Griffith. And I'm sure it will come.
Laura: Wonderful.
Ryan: I'm sure it will come.
Laura: You mentioned at the start about the budget, you were maybe curious about the production budget.
Ryan: Yes. You know what? That was My first question.
Laura: 6.5 million dollar budget and it went over budget. Guess how much it made in the box office?
Ryan: Probably less than 2.
Laura: $100,000. They did not know how to market this film. They didn't know what to do. It was cut, cut, cut, cut, cut. It's such an open New York in la and then now has gained a sort of cult following.
Ryan: Yeah, but that's the thing. Like, it's unpopular for a very specific reason in this.
Laura: Well, I mean, he initially blamed it on the fact that he had to cut it so much to appease the studios. But then you watch it now, which is uncut, the version that you can get.
Ryan: And is that the version we watched?
Laura: Yeah, because it's been re, um, remastered, redone, recut, constituted.
Ryan: It's still not good. I'm sorry, dude, it's still not good. Still not great.
Laura: One more thing. The film was originally titled God's Own Butchers.
Ryan: Much better. But it's a little on the FL and Blood'pretty good. Flesh and Blood'good but like, yeah, God's Own Butchers is a little on the nose. I think.
Laura: When it came out on vhs, it was called the Rose and the Sword.
Ryan: Doesn't make sense.
Laura: Nope.
Ryan: All right, cool.
Laura: Would you like to do your ratings now, sir? Would you like to go ahead and start? Um.
Ryan: Um, yeah, we do. Let's do the scene itself.
Laura: Visibility in context, it's just.
Ryan: It's just not good. It's not a good moment. It begs way too many questions, especially for someone who's like a history freak like yourself. Like, it's too, there's too many things going on and it makes no logical sense. And you're just like. It's like, yeah, uh, at this point I'd rather it wasn't there. I mean, we wouldn't be covering on the podcast. I mean, that's also another reason why I wish
01:00:00
Ryan: it wasn't there. But it's like there's no logical sense for it to um, to be the way that it is. It kind of just doesn't make any sense to me. So it just ends up being a two. Because yeah, you get to see something, but it's just like you just, you question it too much. Also the balance in this films all like, it's so skewed that you're just like there's. It just need. Like there just had to be. It had to go all the way or not at all. And at that point, if it doesn't go there at all, then basically the film is just a complete and uter waste of your time. So, you know, I know I'm like, I think I'm being super harsh on it and I think my film rating will be a little bit more forgiving than some of the things I've said. But there's, there's stuff in it that I like. Like, I like depictions of this period because of how lawless it is and how fucked up people behave. And it's like we still haven't really gotten a good film about like the Crusades either. Unless you count like the Sevenh seal, which is no slightly different thing. But uh, like just stuff like this is fucking interesting. And if you do it really, really well on the screen and you do it, you, you do it properly, then I think it's super fucking interesting because I didn't hate Kingdom of Heaven, but you have to watch the four and a half hour cut of that movie in order to get any semblance of interest out of it. So yeah, it's just, it's like I'm interested in the film itself and I'm interested in this. It just, it feels to me they just, they weren't able to take it as far as they could take it. And uh, it's just painfully uninteresting and kind of visually banal.
Laura: So yeah, okay, I'm gonna give the visibility in context a two and a half. It lends a little bit more to help the balance. But the balance is like you were saying, so completely off kilter that one penis is not going to save that fact. There are boobs flying everywhere. There's full, full frontal and rear female nudity in this film. Like, I don' I don't even know if you barely see a man's butt in this movie. You see, like, Ruder Hower's butt.
Ryan: Yeah. If you. If you stop and check, you can see some vagina.
Laura: Oh, absolutely. There's more than once.
Ryan: There's that poor nun that Hawkw would fucking dunce in the head.
Laura: Yes.
Ryan: And he's like, what did you do? He's like, I hit her. I almost killed her by mistakes. Or, you know, and she obviously is effectively Hawkwood retards her and he's like, kidnaps her. Kidnaps her and then has her on the farm. And, like, no one questions anything. They're just like, oh, how's your plaything? None that you stole. And she's obviously like, yeah, she's been mentally stunted because she had that horrific head wound and she's still there planting vegetables. And you're like, okay, right.
Laura: Yes. Her nudity. Uh, JJL's nudity. The nud.
Ryan: Yeah. No, hold on, hold on. We need likeuse. Now that I'm thinking about it, there's. Where is she? Nowus. He's got the fucking plague. Is she just on the farm still?
Laura: Yeah, just probably knocking her busted head against a wall.
Ryan: Just plantting flat, like, planting vegetables.
Laura: Probably happy to have him gone. Oh, because they said that they were married. I'LIKE, like, they were together.
Ryan: No.
Laura: Yeah, they were together. Yes.
Ryan: Oh, boy.
Laura: So pretty sure he's having sex with that woman who can't even, uh, speak.
Ryan: Can't even speak because she's fucking. Literally had this horrific fucking head wound. He just, like, literally lobotomized her. Oh, my God.
Laura: That's love, baby.
Ryan: I mean, if that's. Yeah. I mean, if that's the way it's meant it go.
Laura: Um, okay, so we've got a horrible, horrible imbalance between a full, full, full female nudity and just a little touch of frontal male nudity. When that fire scene, as we've already explained, I believe should have. Every single person should have been naked in a way to survive. Like, this is a survival tactic.
Ryan: The scene itself should have had a lot more weight to it because I feel like it's a little too casual for what is.
Laura: Uh, it is casual because it's weird. You' absolutely terrified. Like, the plague is happening. Everyone's freaked out. You know what happens Next? There's a 60 to 90% rate of death. So
01:05:00
Laura: you're gonna die.
Ryan: Yeah.
Laura: Anyway. Yeah, no, it should have Gone a lot farther. It should have been heavier. Everyone should have been naked. It should have been a fiasco. And it just seems like. Was that part of the cuts that happened or was it that just no one felt like getting naked? It wasn in their contracts, I'm not sure. But it just seems wrong that we didn't have more nudity, um, on the male side to balance it out a bit.
Ryan: Yeaheah.
Laura: Um, I'll just toss you my film rating. I gave it a three. I gave it a three when I first saw it and I gave it a 3 again. I im kind of with you. I like this type of movie, you know, I do have a minor in Medieval and Renaissance studies, thank you very much. And I like watching these kind of depictions. I love pointing out anachronisms and just seeing what they got right, what they got wrong. And this one'a, um, fucking mess. But still, its not a fun film. Its pretty disgusting. But theres a couple things to like. And most of the things are Rutgerhauer in Mandrakes.
Ryan: Yeah.
Laura: So you can go ahead. I don't know. We've talked about it for an hour.
Ryan: I think we've talked about it at, like, length. But yeah, I do like, there is part of me. I gave it three and a half originally. Because of the lightning strike thing.
Laura: Yeah.
Ryan: Because of how stupid it is.
Laura: Yeah.
Ryan: Um, it probably deserves more of a three or like a two and a half because it's like, what is the film meant to be? Like, who's it marketed? Two like, what's it for? And I find it kind of troubling and puzzling all at the same time. Y. Because you're just like. It's really like. It's a very difficult thing, I think, to market in 1985. And it's like, here's this brutal medieval story that has no love in it whatsoever. And everyone's an asshole. It's like, okay, it's just here to.
Laura: Pave the way for Willow.
Ryan: Or Krul. Yeah. Fucking Crulll. Yeah, there's. Yeah, there's just. There's. The thing is, is like, it has to be this film, but there has to be an injection of something else into it. Which is kind of one of the reasons why I like Berserk an awful lot, is that it's very traditional Dark Ages fantasy, but then there's demons and stuff in it, and that shit's fucking interesting.
Laura: Well, that's not what he wanted to do here. Okay, so stick with your be.
Ryan: Should have he fing should have. And there's not enough of a guy running around wielding a fucking giant sword either.
Laura: That's true.
Ryan: Um, but unfortunately there's a lot of everything else that is the. The R word just being bandied around like fucking crazy. U um, let's just say I'll give it. I'll give it three. I think's probably the best thing. I give it three and a half. The lightning thing. That's because I'm a fucking juvenile. So yeah, it's nothing I ever really want to watch again've We've watched it twice now.
Laura: So glad we own it.
Ryan: I'm like, yeah, we have the version of it which we'll never have to update ever again.
Laura: That's right.
Ryan: And it's basically there for people to borrow. That's why we own it now.
Laura: That's why.
Ryan: Mhm.
Laura: Well, goodness gracious, thank you, my valentine. Ryan.
Ryan: Date night movie.
Laura: Ye. That's why I picked it.
Ryan: Lift her up. Lift her up.
Laura: I picked it because it's Verhoveen's most romantic film.
Ryan: Yeah, I thought, darling, I would just bring the boys round.
Laura: Oh my God. Coming to you From Western Europe 1501 I have been Laura.
Ryan: Come to you turnip.
Laura: Gross.
Ryan: Yes, the cumy turnip. Um, yeah. Let's wrap this up. I need to go to work.
Laura: Happy Valentine'day U.
01:09:02