Here we are for Part 2 of the "Lee-gacy": LUST, CAUTION !
Watch your step! Apply caution, there's lust in the air! Get a wet floor sign (the joke didn't really work on air either but it's honestly the best I have at the moment)!
The steamy, raunchy, espionage, spy thriller with all those "hard" sex scenes in them: LUST, CAUTION (2007). I mean they're pretty eye-catching, especially if you happen to lock eyes with Tony Leung at any point during them as he's squashing Tang Wei into as small a ball as possible.
It's a mixed bag for us. One of those rare occasions where Ryan likes something more than Laura does. There's plenty to like here but when you're posing an argument that it may be didn't need the hard sex scenes as pertaining to our interests on the podcast and in order to tell a good story, you know something's up.
Laura: Did you just do, like, an Oscars? Wrap it up.
Ryan: I'm worried about the weather, and I had a funny feeling in my head that we're gonna have a power short, so I really wanted it. Yeah, there's a storm. I can feel I've got a weird sensation in my body.
Laura: Oh, that's creepy.
Ryan: Yeah.
Laura: Okay. Um, hello there. Welcome to, On the BiTTE, the podcast that uncovers full frontal male nudity in cinema. My name is Laura, and I am joined by my delightful co host, Ryan.
Ryan: Oh, watch out.
Laura: What happened?
Ryan: Lust Caution. Caution. Someone has to put down a wet floor sign.
Laura: Uh, this episode will be covering the.
Ryan: I've had that joke in my head for at least the last week.
Laura: I haven't even got to introduce the film, and you're already dropping hot jokes?
Ryan: I mean, slippery jokes. Yeah. If I'm not dropping hot jokes, I'm dropping a hot deuce on someone's big, fat cinematic head.
Laura: Wow. Okay. That's exactly how I thought this episode would begin as we talk about the 2007 erotic period espionage, romantic mystery film Lust Caution. And this is part two of our legacy.
Ryan: Yeah, we're in the, uh would you call this the penultimate? Because this is only a three part. So this is like, the middle one.
Laura: Yeah, right? The middle child.
Ryan: The middle child. Um, got to tell you, this is one of those rare occasions where I like something more than you do.
Laura: I did not like this film because.
Ryan: I don't know when have we had this before where I've enjoyed something more than you've enjoyed on the podcast?
Laura: Not typically.
Ryan: Doesn't typically happen.
Laura: I actually don't know when it's happened.
Ryan: Well, I just tend to have this idea that I think people think I just hate everything, so everyone's always surprised when I do like something. I hear that all the time.
Laura: I think that there's just moods that you have to be in for certain things. And maybe sometimes you're in the mood, sometimes you're not. I was not in the mood for this. There was not as much lust as I expected, and certainly very little caution.
Ryan: Yeah, I will say there is some it begs a little bit more kind of exploration and explanation, like kind of how this I don't want to call it like a love story, but it's kind of like how it is, uh, how it's kind of penned, I guess, in the notes.
Laura: Let me just get out some facts real quick. So this film stars Tang Wei as Wang Shai Chi or Mrs. Mac.
Ryan: Yes.
Laura: And Tony Lung as Mr. Yi.
Ryan: Fuck. Yeah. We get to talk about Tony Lung for a little bit.
Laura: You've been waiting. You're like, oh, I can't believe there's a penis. You get to see Tony Long's penis?
Ryan: Yeah, he's one of my boys. I've always liked Tony Lung.
Laura: Yeah.
Ryan: Ever since I got into Chinese Hong Kong Taiwanese cinema. I've always admired Tony Long infernal affairs.
Laura: Right.
Ryan: He's in infernal affairs.
Laura: I love infernal affairs.
Ryan: Um, he is a superstar. Um, so yeah, I mean, I'd say Infernal Affairs was a film that I remember showing you love. And Infernal Affairs, if anyone's not aware, um, was later adapted by Martin Scorsese, um, into what became The Departed, which I think is, uh, say it like.
Laura: They say it in the film Departed. There you.
Ryan: But the Infernal Affairs was a three part trilogy. Um, and uh, yeah, that also co starred Andy Lau as well. Yeah, he was also a huge star.
Laura: Over there as well. A couple of hot dudes.
Ryan: Yeah. Well, I remember Andy Lau more prominently from the God of Gamblers film series as well, which I don't think you've seen. I've got the first movie in the house here that you can watch. But I'm more familiar with Tony Lung and his relationship with Wong, uh, Car Y and John, uh, Wu and the movies they made together. Um, tony Lung's done some pretty exciting work with Wong Kar Wai. He's in Chongking Express. And he's also in, uh, the gay love story. Happy. Uh, together as well. And they're both kind of two very prominent roles that, uh, he's taken up. And also he's in Hard Boiled, also great film with uh, Chow Yun Fat as well. Um, so yeah, I've got a lot of respect for Tony Lung. He does elevate this film a little bit.
Laura: Yeah.
Ryan: I don't know if they utilize Tony Lung and his talents as much as I would have wanted him to, but it's not as bad as what they did to him know, when he did that Disney, that Shang Chi film. He is fucking wasted in that movie.
Laura: That movie's not very good.
Ryan: It's fucking dire. Yeah.
Laura: So let me just drop the synopsis of this film from Letterboxed. And luckily it's not very long.
Ryan: Good during world you mean like an actual synopsis?
Laura: Correct. I believe this is two sentences, so it's perfect. During World War II, a secret agent must seduce, then assassinate an official who works for the Japanese puppet government in Shanghai. Her mission becomes clouded when she finds herself falling in love with the man she is assigned to kill.
Ryan: Now, I do find this sorry, sleepy.
Laura: It was really short.
Ryan: It was short.
Laura: The movie's.
Ryan: Not the movie's. Yeah. The movie is close to almost 3 hours long.
Laura: Uh, okay, I have a bit of a problem with this synopsis because I walked into this film thinking it was going to be more secret agent like, I don't know if I consider her a secret agent. So she plays uh, like a college student who gets wrapped up in a kind of a resistance movement, like with a bunch of actors.
Ryan: Yeah.
Laura: Right.
Ryan: They all have an agenda. Obviously, the head of the troop, who's effectively the director, he's got a fairly extensive backstory in that his family, um, his brother went to war and he obviously passed away, and then, uh, he wasn't allowed to go into the army, but it was obvious that he wanted to fight. He wanted to fight for his country, and he wanted to fight for, uh, his rights, because he's effectively seeing the occupation of his country from Japanese forces during the Second World War.
Laura: Right.
Ryan: So he has quite a fair amount of motivation to defend, uh, his honor. And in doing so, yeah, they do start with this relatively quite I mean, it's politically motivated stage show that they put on.
Laura: It's just wild because I'm watching this film and I go, okay, they're doing a play about the resistance, and it catches on a little bit. People like it. And then I feel like it just jumped immediately into a bunch of these kids going, you know what, guys? We are such good actors. We should become secret super spies and murder people. It was a leap to me.
Ryan: Yeah, I think there's more to it than either they explain or they go into. But the way these things tend to start, or at least the way that these things started, at least back then and in these separate countries, and I think I was familiar with stories like this in Russia as well, obviously during the Russian Revolution and obviously before the rise of fascism in Germany in, uh, the 1920s. Um, it does start very kind of a grassroots level. So he'll have been putting out propaganda and politically motivated, um, information out there. In this case, it was a stage show, and he's probably been approached by actual members of the resistance movement who give him a proposition. And the proposition is to potentially assassinate, um, someone who they see as a traitor. Ah, I mean, Tony Long plays the turncoats, and he's actively torturing and murdering, um, people in the resistance movement for, uh, the Japanese forces. Um, I don't see it so much as a leap, because historically, that stuff kind of makes sense to me. And they would have started relatively quite young. What I quite like is that obviously, with our main character know, her alias is Mrs. Mack, um, or I can't remember the rest of her name. I was trying to her actual name chai Chi Wong. Chai Chi. Um, I like the fact that she progresses from just going into this troupe, becoming an actor, and then eventually she takes that ability of being an actress into seducing, obviously. Tony Lung and this is a story that kind of takes place over several years, um, as the war is still going on, as so, uh, yeah, three.
Laura: Four, five years at most, I would say at least.
Ryan: Yeah, at least. I think the war has literally just started when they start doing, uh, the stage show, um, or at least the occupation has started, um, around about that time. So three or four something. OD something years later, obviously, the Second World War is still going on.
Laura: Well, this film was based on the 1979 novella by Eileen Chang. And it's interesting, I was reading about the title of the film because apparently it has a double meaning. So the character for Lust I don't know if it's like the Chinese character for Lust can also be read as color. And then the character for Caution can also be used as ring. So the title could also mean colored ring, which obviously plays a role.
Ryan: Yeah, it's a real big piece of symbolism throughout the course of the movie.
Laura: Piece of jewelry.
Ryan: Poor it is ugly as sin.
Laura: Uh, I said during when we were watching the film, looks like a wedding cake.
Ryan: Looks a little bit like a wedding.
Laura: Biggest ring I've ever seen.
Ryan: It looks like the sort of thing you put over your toilet brush to keep it nice and colored, colorful.
Laura: I don't even know what you're talking about.
Ryan: So, like, back in the day, I remember at my grand's house, you'd like, bejewel your toilet. Well, no, you had a toilet brush. And then you had a toilet brush cover. So you didn't see the toilet brush. You just saw, like, I don't know, like, a woman with a dress on. And you would just, like, pop, um, her on. And she would cover it. And you'd be like, oh, isn't that nice? Next to toy, it's just something else that guys would end up pissing on accidentally because they were usually made of fabric as well. So they just soak up all your stinky piss.
Laura: EW.
Ryan: Yeah.
Laura: Wow. Okay.
Ryan: Pretty nasty. That's not to say I did that, but I wouldn't be fucking touching that. Not a million years. It is covered in pests.
Laura: Yeah, I always think about that with the, uh, toilet seat covers. Anyway.
Ryan: My grand had one of those as well. Those furry ones.
Laura: Um, okay. Where do I go from there?
Laura: So, um, our main actor, Tang Wei, uh, the real person, she was ostracized from mainland Chinese movie industry and didn't work for three years after this film because the state administration of radio and film and television disapproved of her sexual acts in this film. So do you think Tony Lung was blacklisted from Chinese cinema?
Ryan: Probably not. Because he's a man.
Laura: That's right.
Ryan: Probably not. Um, superstar Tony Long. I remember back in the day when Lust Caution came out and there was quite a massive star in regards to how graphic the sex scenes were in this movie. And there's also a fairly graphic, um, rape scene.
Laura: Yeah, I was watching that scene. And I don't consider it a rape.
Ryan: Scene just because a little bit yeah. And the thing is, it's also a bit of a double edged sword. Because if you say it is and people are like, well, no, that's obviously not rape. What you decide was rape. But then, uh, it's kind of also like, well, if it isn't, then you need to describe in further detail, like how it is. I personally think it's kind of borderline.
Laura: Absolutely.
Ryan: To me, it looks like aggressive sex. Um, yes.
Laura: So that's the first time these characters have sex is really rough. And I know.
Ryan: Yeah.
Laura: Like we were saying, people consider it to be a rape scene. He pushes her up against the wall. He slaps her with his belt, wraps her up with his belt.
Ryan: Very violent.
Laura: But then he rips her clothes off. And that bothered me because clothes are so expensive and stockings and stuff. It's a rich guy. I assume that he he's rich.
Ryan: And he's obviously got like his concubine of ladies and stuff like that because he is married. But there's other women that are there. I mean, a lot of the movie revolves around these women playing Majong. For the most part. They play mahjong a lot.
Laura: Um, for money, too.
Ryan: And for do. It's like all they do. So that's kind of how they that's how they primarily make their funds, for the most part, is they're kind of just transferring money between each other's hands.
Laura: Hanging out gossiping.
Ryan: Hanging out gossiping. Playing board games, doing what you do. Yeah. But, um yeah.
Laura: Uh, you don't have a lot to say, do you?
Ryan: I don't really have. I liked the story. I liked how it progressed. I liked how certain things revealed themselves. There's an obvious feeling that Ang Lee is a massive fan of Alfred Hitchcock and stuff. This is obviously influenced by To Catch a Thief and north, uh, by Northwest, and, uh, a whole bunch, like Marnie. Like loads and loads of those Alfred Hitchcock movies that he's just basically channeling into this. But obviously there's quite graphic sex stuff. Uh, and there's a really violent murder scene in the movie as well, which I thought was fantastic.
Laura: Yeah, that was really cool. I did write that down. I wrote the stabbing scene and put a little sad face.
Laura: So earlier on in the film, they're amateur spies, right?
Ryan: Pretty much this theater trip.
Laura: They're amateur spies.
Ryan: They're like fringe activists who are deciding that they're going to go through with this. The problem is that they are very small fish in a very big pond.
Laura: But they get found out real fast. Really fast. And it's so awkward because it begins like they're going to be a shootout. And then there's just a struggle. And then the head activist, director of the troop grabs like, a little knife, right?
Ryan: The guy had a knife or someone had a knife on them. And it's not that this room is full of there's six other activists. There's this one guy who's going to out them all. And he's Mr. Yi's friend or point of contact. This is the reason why, um, Mr. Yee is not going to meet with, uh, Mrs. Mack and stuff like that. Pretty much. This is kind of how it all sort know. He gets a little bit too weary and scared of the situation. But I guess what you end up seeing is basically this very visceral and very, uh, kind of clumsy murder sequence where it's like, we can't allow this man to live, so we just have to get the courage up to stab, like, to murder him so that he will not talk. Um, and that's effectively what happens. So it's a very visceral, very grim, very dark. I mean, there's even a bit, which I quite appreciated, where he goes to stab him initially. But his hand slips on the blade and he ends up cutting his hand. So he has to try and stab the guy again.
Laura: And he does it. So he just pushes it in. Because you don't know, right? You don't know what it feels like to push a knife into a human being. So it's like, so slow. It's so horrible. But it's almost Murder on the Orient Express type of thing. Because everyone gets their hands in. Everyone gets involved. Everyone gets a poke.
Ryan: Yeah. It's like the end of, um, Lady Vengeance.
Laura: Yeah.
Ryan: Where they just well, they're just like.
Laura: They all get a piece.
Ryan: Well, the thing is, this has to happen. Otherwise they are all dead. That's pretty much they have to murder this man. And, uh, as you would expect, uh, the guy is not dead after one stab wound. So he just kind of stumbles around, bleeding all over the place.
Laura: Oh, it's horrible.
Ryan: And then, uh, yeah, just they fucking snaps that dude's neck. He's already fallen down the stairs by this point. He's been stabbed like four or five times, and he's dying. Um, and he just fucking snaps that guy's neck. Just rotates his head all the way around so he can see his back.
Laura: So hard to do.
Ryan: Uh, yeah. It's, uh, super fucked. But again, we're just, like, telling the story of the movie.
Laura: Well, there's this other part that I wanted to talk about just for a hot second, okay, where they're prepping, right? So you have this troop, they're prepping to be spies. And she's got to seduce Tony Lung. But she's never had sex before. And she's playing a married woman.
Ryan: Yeah. See, I actually quite appreciated this stuff.
Laura: I don't have a problem with it. I thought it was really interesting because.
Ryan: You really started to kind of get the ins and outs of the culture and their background and stuff like that.
Laura: Well, also their commitment to this situation. Because that's a big deal culturally, I think, for people, that's a big deal. Like losing your virginity. Right? And none of these people had lost their virginity except one guy, uh, who had sex with a prostitute, I guess someone that had hired for him. So he's the only one that's had sex before. And they're like, well, I guess you're going to have sex with him. And he's just chugging some sort of alcohol and just gets on top of her. And it's the saddest, grossest, just dry you know she was not ready.
Ryan: Well, to be fair yeah. I mean they have to get her sex ready.
Laura: I know, but to be fair, Ryan, as a get, you gotta put a little bit of pre work in there. You can't just jam it in especially.
Ryan: No, I know that. Um yeah, I know that. Uh, well, it's not good for the dude either. It's not exactly. No, probably not. But it's still going to chafe.
Laura: Yeah, but then it's not like she does it just the once. She does it a few times just so she can get the hang of it.
Ryan: She ends up fucking the guy like a number of different times.
Laura: But then he says to her at one point he goes, oh, you seem more responsive today. EW.
Ryan: Yeah, it's pretty gross. I'd rather you didn't explain this while we're doing it.
Laura: She's super committed and um, I was like, okay, she's really going to go for it. This one moment in her life changes everything for her. So instead of going to school and continuing to study and getting a job, she just becomes a spy just by a happenstance meeting with this guy who goes, come try out for my play. And it changes everything. It becomes her life.
Ryan: Pretty much. Yeah. Ah, pretty much.
Laura: M. It's really crazy.
Ryan: Yeah. Like I say, I think it's a very interesting story. Um, it's a little long. Yeah.
Laura: No it's incredibly long.
Ryan: Yeah. We were also a little bit apprehensive to do this episode. Sometimes we go into it because I think the last one that was super long was it uh, play in the Fields of the Lord. And that film's almost 4 hours long.
Laura: I did not get bored during that movie though.
Ryan: No, I didn't really get bored during it either.
Laura: I don't know. That movie shouldn't be good.
Ryan: The movie shouldn't be good. This movie has got a really strong story. But it does feel a little long. Um, you do feel like you're saying the same shit over and over. Quite a fair amount. So it could have done my wee bit of trimming. Um, but yeah, I like some of the details in the storytelling though. I do like that stuff.
Laura: Well, why don't you talk about it? What did you like? Because I don't have anything nice to say.
Ryan: Okay.
Laura: I'm just kidding.
Ryan: I have some nice I was talking about how her development from becoming an actress just by this chance meeting of that uh and then that leads them to having to pretend to be somebody else in a spy espionage sort of situation. And I like the landscape of the occupation with Japan and uh, obviously the high level of poverty that's going on during this time and the amount of desperation. Um, and also we don't see but we hear quite a fair amount about the horrible things that Tony Long and his uh, compatriots are doing to these uh, resistance fighters as very I feel like it's a lovely kind of detailed, like I think it's immaculately made.
Laura: Yes.
Ryan: Um, it looks amazing. Um, and certainly it's shot by Rodrigo Prieto. Again. Um, Brokeback from Brokeback.
Laura: And, uh, best friends.
Ryan: Wolf of Wall Street and Silence fame. And also the music is, uh, done by Alexandria, uh, Deschlett as well. So there is that. It's got a very good score to it. But, uh, yeah, I think we'll get into I like it. Maybe we'll get into what you don't like about it.
Laura: Oh, I just thought it was boring. Yeah, I was just bored, that's all. And we could probably talk for a good 45 minutes about Tony Long's sex face, which will hunt me.
Ryan: There is a lot of hunt me. Yeah. Uh, like, he's got a hard stare in this film that's like, kind of just you kind of just want him to not.
Laura: This film has an NC 17 rating.
Ryan: Yeah. I thought we were going to get onto this eventually.
Laura: And it's actually the highest grossing NC 17 rated film of all time.
Ryan: Huh. That's interesting.
Laura: It had like a $16 million budget. It grossed over 67 million worldwide. Um, but the reason it's in NC 17 is because there is unsimulated sex in this film.
Ryan: Yeah.
Laura: So it's fascinating. I think this is no, this is absolutely the first film we've done that has unsimulated sex in it. And I wasn't expecting it from angli film, but here we are.
Ryan: Yeah. It's not sexy. Let's not put it that way. It's not sexy.
Laura: The fact that someone somewhere thought that this was an erotic drama, erotic thrillers are my favorite type of film. This is not erotic. And it is only mildly thrilling at times. And I'm not just trying to shit on this film. It's not what I'm saying. It's just that you have an expectation based on how the movie is described and maybe how it's marketed, in a way. You go, OOH, this is going to be sexy. And it's just absolutely it's absolutely not. And there's some really long extended sex scenes, and it takes a long time to get there. An hour and 41 minutes into the film is, uh, that's probably our gosh. We have the sex scene with the friend from the group, one of the activists. Right.
Ryan: Those aren't particularly graphic. No, there's stuff.
Laura: Yeah, there's like two of those, at least.
Ryan: At least.
Laura: And then you have the first kind of rapey scene with Tony Lung.
Ryan: Yeah.
Laura: And then you have when they, uh, kind of actually maybe he lets his guard down a little bit with her and it's not as violent. And that's the one I'm talking about right now, is like an hour and 41 minutes into the film where you get his extended stare, his creepy sex stare. It's like he doesn't even blink. And he's got her in these crazy positions, mhm, that you don't see too often.
Ryan: He's got her like squished a bit.
Laura: They're like a little, um I don't know, like two little crabs just, like, enveloped in each other or something. They're just, like, really wet and they're just very sweaty. And she's going for it, and he's just staring. Not making a noise.
Ryan: No.
Laura: It's so strange.
Ryan: Yeah.
Laura: He's got that for someone who's this is what he's done it a few times before. They say later in the film that he has killed other concubines that he's had because they were spies.
Ryan: Yeah.
Laura: So he keeps falling into this trap he's pretty pathetic that he keeps falling into the trap of these hot lady spies.
Ryan: Yeah.
Laura: Third time's a charm.
Ryan: Well, she's a very good actress.
Laura: She's also really good looking. He's good looking, too. Hot people.
Ryan: Yeah. She's instantly disarming. Um, I wouldn't say no to her. Yeah. In the classical sense of a 1940s starlet. There's quite a lot of references to movies made of the time and stuff.
Laura: She loves the movies.
Ryan: Yeah. I mean, uh, Ingrid Bergman, we see her face in, like, a clip of some sort. And, uh, there's posters and stuff for, uh, Carrie Grant movies and stuff in the film.
Laura: Did you know that I'm related to Carrie Grant? I've said that before.
Ryan: Yeah. I'm pretty sure this is at least the 20th or 30th time that you've brought it up at some point.
Laura: That's why I'm so charming.
Ryan: Okay.
Laura: Yeah.
Ryan: All right.
Laura: I'm basically famous.
Ryan: Uh, well, can you cut some of that fame into this podcast so we can start earning money off this shit?
Laura: I called him the silent lover. That's what I wrote down.
Ryan: Okay. He's the silent lover, but he's the hard pounder. Yeah.
Ryan: So I guess if we're going into this, we go into the sex scene, right? We go into the Dixie.
Laura: Well, I thought I saw a little something. And you probably do. Um, if the lights are turned off and the TV is real bright in that first one, like an hour and 41 minutes, but an hour, 53 minutes and about 10 seconds. Oh, God, my notes are so gross. So you have another sex scene. I don't know. It's pretty much a lot of the same, except it's a little bit more graphic this time. There's a lot more nudity on her side. There's a lot more nudity on his side. You see angles that you don't typically see even in a pornography.
Ryan: Well, no, I don't agree with that. I don't agree with that. This is not pornography.
Laura: I didn't say it. I said it's not.
Ryan: You're not a woman in our mid 50s being like, I can't believe it. You picked up the handmaid and it's pornography.
Laura: Because the deal with pornography listen, it's just not something you typically see the angles. I'm saying no.
Ryan: There's a lot of detail that you would not focus on, um, if you were trying to, say, get an R.
Laura: Reading, for example, like the Shaft.
Ryan: You see the deck going in. You do see the deck going into the vagina.
Laura: You do. You see the intercourse scientific about this? The scroll, everything.
Ryan: Yeah. The act is in quite a lot of fair amount of detail.
Laura: I love that when I, you know, uh, everyone knows I've been doing this for a really long time, so I've been researching this for a long time. And Lust Caution was always on that list. And I remember you saying to me, you seeing it on the list? And you go, there is no way. There is no way that he gets naked. There's no way. And I go, there's no way he does. I'm m pretty sure. And you're like, no. It's like when other friends will say to me, like, I'm pretty sure someone gets naked in this movie. I'm like, if anybody's going to know, it is me. I'm the expert. I'm the subject matter expert on full frontal male nudity. Thank you very much. But it's hilarious to me, like, how much you were fighting. It is there no way. Here we are.
Ryan: I didn't think my boy was going to put himself in that kind of position to be like that.
Laura: He put himself into several positions.
Ryan: He did. He did not faff around. But the thing is, I mean, I don't know. Good for him. Because I don't know. Here's the thing. This is also something that's obviously a little bit cloudy, is just kind of the what does having scenes that are unsimulated in that way that are so kind of raw like that, what does it add to the story?
Laura: Right.
Ryan: You know what I mean?
Laura: I genuinely don't think it does that's.
Ryan: My only main concern is that I don't know if this adds anything to the overall story. If I think of other films of like this ilk right. Um, you think about Last Tango in Paris, or probably much closer to this, uh, just culturally is, uh, Nagisa Oshima's, uh, in the realm of the senses, or as it is in Japanese. I know. Karida, I, uh, think is obviously a very I mean, there's a scene in that with an egg and we'll probably watch that movie eventually. I don't know if there's a dick in it, though. Hope there is, but yeah, I don't know if there's actually any sort of penis in that movie.
Laura: Okay.
Ryan: Just because it's Japanese and ordinarily Japanese movies. I mean, they even pixelate the dicks in their pornography. So, um, I'd be very surprised. So that's why I feel like kind of, uh, have a relatively decent understanding of movies of that region and stuff like that. Uh, it was surprising to me to see such a level of quite gross detail on show here.
Laura: Oh, yeah.
Ryan: Um, and I think there's an argument to be made of whether or not contextually it is adding anything to the story. I'm not 100% convinced that it is. Um, the story itself is also quite. Kind of raw and real and there is some things in there. But the thing is, the rest of the movie feels relatively quite quaint. And I wish it was a little bit more kind of twisty, turny sort of espionage, uh, spy movie, um, because there is a sense of danger that's, like, ever present and stuff in the film.
Laura: But keep on the dick scene. I'm not done.
Ryan: Yeah, I guess so.
Laura: I have some facts. Are you ready? Here we go.
Ryan: Okay.
Laura: Angley said that the directing of the sex scenes in this film were more difficult than directing the complicated fighting scenes in Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon.
Ryan: Okay.
Laura: They shot over eleven days on a closed set, eleven days straight, consecutive.
Ryan: Oh, dear.
Laura: Okay. Angley initially hired Ryan Zhang to be Tony Long's stand in for the sex scenes, but the actor felt embarrassed and gave up. So Tony Long was like, I'm going to do it myself.
Ryan: Okay.
Laura: Uh, both Tang Wei and Tony Long were asked whether the sex scenes in the movie were unsimulated. Tang Wei said, in the movie, we're just doing what we should do to have a baby. And Tony Lung said, when the bodies collide with each other, it is indeed like a fake show. Which is weird. And I'm not sure what that means, but I do believe, um, it was okay. So everyone agrees with that. Inglia said it, but yeah, it's pretty, um yeah, I just love that he hired specifically a stand in to do it.
Ryan: And he's like, no, this is too much for me. Yeah, that's kind of wild. Um, yeah. I commend the performers for what they do, I think. Yeah. They just kind of beg the question of whether it adds anything to the movie. I do like the scenes, honestly, because they do in terms of there's just a raw sexuality that's there. And it's also kind of because of the lack of because she's going to be this person's final destination. That's what she's looking for. And she's, like, begging for it later on in the story when she's having those meetups with the other parts of the activist group where they're like, I hope you just burst in one time and you just murder him. Because I'm like, she's far past it at this point.
Laura: It was confusing. Uh, that probably lends to the storytelling as well, and her character. But I was never quite sure if she was really falling for this guy or if she was just an incredible actor. Because you're right, she does go to her activist friends when she levels up to being a professional spy later on. And she does say, when is this going to be done? I've done enough. I've given you everything. Why are you not just doing it already? And time keeps going and types keeps going. And it looks like she's gagging for it. And so it was a little confusing to me. Where are you going? With this. I don't see her falling in love. Maybe he's just really good in bed and it's just like a perk.
Ryan: But yeah, this is kind of where I have the biggest issues is with its ending. Because I don't feel like the ending is justified. It's a little bit of an eye roll and um, it ends unceremoniously as well.
Laura: I want to just say one more thing about the sex, okay? Because of how graphic it is. And to be fair, we're saying you see angles that you don't typically see in a film like this, but it's not gross or anything. They are very sweaty. But uh, that's just what happens.
Ryan: Like I say, it reminded me fair amount of those other two movies that.
Laura: I just last single in Paris is disgusting. That's gross. But it is uh, ill. God, give me that film 30 years before. And I was like, hell yeah.
Ryan: That's hot. Butter.
Laura: Uh, not hot.
Ryan: Yeah.
Laura: What the hell were we talking about?
Ryan: You're talking about the sex. You won't shop about the sex.
Laura: Here's the thing. It's just that because it's so graphic and you shot so much of it over twelve days, I'm like, why isn't there more? Because we also have to wait almost 2 hours before they actually have sex. And this is like an erotic film touted uh, as such. So I kind of expected more. Because if she's going to fall for this dude, and if she's really going to get entangled in this situation and lose herself or have a, I don't know, a Beauty and the Beast situation, like, maybe he's not that bad, I can change him, then I want more. I need more of their relationship. I need more sex. I need more positions.
Ryan: Yeah.
Laura: I kind of wanted that to be explored a little bit more, especially over a film that is like 3 hours long.
Ryan: Yeah.
Ryan: The main issue is that you have all of this relatively quite drawn out, kind of long, graphic, like, sex stuff that happens more or less in the final half of the movie, but appears that the character is swayed purely by one single piece of jewelry that gives.
Laura: Her and you're like, horrific piece of costume jewelry.
Ryan: You're like, oh, okay, well, yeah, I.
Laura: Know it's not costume jewelry.
Ryan: Well, it kind of just completely dismantles her character that she ends up kind of being a little bit shallow. And the weird thing about some of the characterization of Tony Lung is that I thought this was a good moment. I like this bit in the movie where they go to the Japanese region, uh, of the town of the city, right? And it's basically you go through a gate, you show them your passport, all this sort of stuff, right? And it's basically where all the servicemen have kind of stationed themselves up. So they go into what is effectively like, uh, I don't know what they call them back over there. But it's like where you go to have a few drinks and meet some geishas and they'll perform songs and they'll do a dance for you and stuff like that. Have your own private room, all that sort of thing, right? So she goes to meet him there and she sings a song of her culture, of her ilk, right? Which is obviously very different because they're criticizing the music that the Japanese are playing. And then she sings. She does a dance. And Tony Long starts to well up and he starts to cry from what she's doing. He starts to melt a little bit, which I quite liked, I guess, to a certain degree, where it's kind of like, oh, this is like he has a sense of he does have a sense of national pride. And he has this self awareness of being like, well, yeah, no, I'm a fucking traitor of my country, and I've sent my own countrymen and I've killed my own countrymen for these invaders purely on the basis of monetary gain, because that's all it can be for my gosh.
Laura: I didn't connect that at all.
Ryan: Oh, did you know, I thought he.
Laura: Just really liked her song and was falling in love.
Ryan: No, I thought it was because of I thought it was because of that. It could be both. I mean, it's very simple to be like that as well. Um, but again, it's not a story about him connecting with her romantically. It's about, uh, the fact that she is connecting with him romantically. But you don't really see it. It's not particularly clear because I don't.
Laura: Know if she's what she's saying to him, I have been waiting around for you all day. I've been thinking about you. Where have you been? And things like that. And I go, Is it just because you're a spy?
Ryan: I think it is that she's a spy. I just didn't like just really hungry.
Laura: For that dick, too, maybe.
Ryan: But I mean, here's the problem, is that there is a romantic interest on the activist side. And it's obviously the director of the acting troupe just before that. And she tells him that, well, you're just three years too late, pretty much, is what she tells him.
Laura: Yeah. Um, well, yeah.
Ryan: I just can't wrap my head around the fact that she's swayed by a piece of fucking gaudy jewelry.
Laura: Yeah. Well, in that moment as well, she goes, I don't know how I can wear something this expensive out. And he goes, Well, I want you to wear it because you're mine. And we're together. And it's like a representation of our well, it was more being together.
Ryan: It was more that you don't have to worry about wearing that because you're going to be with me.
Laura: Yeah, but it's also I mean, he did say it's like a symbol of what they got going on.
Ryan: Yeah. But it also harkens back to the opening scene of the movie. Where all the rest of the women there, they all have these expensive rings on it's, apples and oranges after a certain point.
Ryan: Because certainly the way the film ends. Like, I don't like the way the film ends.
Laura: So here's a big fat spoiler for the end. Because I want to talk about it because it didn't bother me. Because you kind of knew where it was going to go. Someone's going to die, right? And so you got to wonder, who is it going to be? Is it going to be her because she fucked up? Or is it going to be him because she did her job? And I didn't know where it was going to go for the longest time. So when they have that whole scene with that gigantic wedding cake of a ring, pink and Diamondy and so large.
Ryan: Yes.
Laura: And this is the moment where everything's come together. You got the assassins outside from the resistance ready to gun this guy down. And you're waiting for it to happen. And she's nervous. And she's being a terrible actor. But I'd also be really scared if I was standing right next to the guy that's going to get shot at any moment. But you see her struggling after the ring.
Ryan: She gets the ring.
Laura: And her internal struggle is so loud. And he's wondering what's going on. And he's probably nervous because he's been through this before.
Ryan: Yeah.
Laura: He's like, oh, shit. Here we go again. And she just tells him to run.
Ryan: Yeah.
Laura: And I'm like, dude. But I thought even in that moment, she tells him to run. He's like, oh, god. Are you fucking kidding me? He runs out the door. And I'm like, okay. They can definitely get him, right? I still thought they, uh, were going to get him.
Ryan: Yeah, I thought they would have I thought they would have got him space. Here's the thing, is that her pre warning him. And he runs out. Like, there's this idea that I don't know what the activists were looking to do. Like to assassinate him. I don't know what they were looking to do. Were they going to wait for the slow walk back to the car after they left?
Laura: The jewelry could have done it in the wait, walked into the jewelry, could.
Ryan: Have blocked them from leaving the jewelry store. Uh, it just looked like they were.
Laura: Not was going to do it either.
Ryan: Well, no one was. I mean, I don't think that's really her concern. What my issue is, is that by her effectively pre warning him and he's able to get away, all she does is the whole basis of her story becomes a, uh, completely fruitless endeavor. And you know exactly what happens. They all get caught. They all get executed. That's exactly what happens. At the end of the movie.
Laura: She sacrifices her life and the life of all of her friends and activists for this piece of shit, man.
Ryan: Yeah. Because she doesn't survive.
Laura: It's not like she's like, save her.
Ryan: He's like, oh, ah, thanks, love. Let's continue on with the fucking it doesn't go that way. They just line them up. They're at a quarry and they just all get shot. And they get dumped into the quarry, right? And she has to look at all of her friends in the eye when she sat there. They're on their knees and it's just like, we're going to die. And it's like, well, fuck you, bitch. Why did you do this?
Laura: Mind blowing that his top assistant security guy knew everything for a really long time. He knew about all these the college group, their activists, and how the girl was a freaking spy.
Ryan: Yeah.
Laura: And Tony Long goes, why didn't you tell me you knew everything? He goes, oh, well, I basically knew you were having sex with this girl. So I was just going to leave it until the last minute. Which is so dangerous because she could have killed him at any time with.
Ryan: That piece of information. What could have happened at that moment is that that's when the activists are picked up then and there. So there's not this pre warned, but, uh I mean, I would rather they were like, oh, they pick them up. And then obviously later they cordon off the street and they prevent her from leaving.
Laura: I feel like she just goes back to him.
Ryan: She just kind of gives up.
Laura: Yeah.
Ryan: It's a real weird kind of conundrum. And it's like because the love story wasn't kind of told strongly enough, you feel like it comes a little bit out of left field.
Laura: She even has a little cyanide pill that the government bro gives her. And she thinks about taking it. And in that moment, I go, what the fuck? Are you good? Why would you do that?
Laura: Yeah, there's such chaos happening. Just get out. Get out.
Ryan: Yeah.
Laura: Even though you don't deserve it, you're dumb.
Ryan: It just feels a little bit like because the story was leading up to such a strong point. I mean, I like the idea of her struggling with her emotions. If they were at all powerful enough for me to feel like that that was the case. But I mean, she could have just stabbed him in the chest and then got him to swallow that gigantic fucking ring that she was giving him at the jewelers. Um, was like looking on in fucking horror. The creation that he'd made for her was being jammed down, uh, Tony lung's fucking throat as he bled out all over his know. There could have been anything. Because that's the thing. Then you fulfill your mission and you do just it feels a bit just feels a little bit hollow. It feels pathetic to um I like.
Laura: Women are weak or something.
Ryan: Well, personally, I felt like the story was good up until that point. And you're like, hey, they talk about.
Laura: How strong she is that government boy is talking about, oh, she's so strong. She's, uh, so much stronger than you give her credit for. And then she ah, really blows it. Really blows it at the end. So disappointed in her.
Ryan: Yeah.
Laura: She was so good this whole time.
Ryan: She was. It just feels a little bit just feels a little bit you know, you hate it when a film ends badly. It's just like it's the worst. It's the worst thing. Uh, yeah.
Ryan: Well, that's, uh, ratings.
Laura: Yep. It did win. So this is Angley's second Golden Lion Award at Venice M, which he also won for Brookback Mountain, which is five stars. We all know Brookback Mountain is amazing.
Ryan: Yeah. That film ended well.
Laura: Yeah, it did. Really did.
Laura: So would you like to start, Ryan? With your visibility and context rating?
Ryan: This is hard. I might just give it like maybe a two and a half or something. Yeah, you do get a big shot of his balls. You really do. Um, here's the thing as well, because we talk about the sex scenes. But here's a very practical thing. You talk about the angles and stuff like that. That particular angle is not flattering in the least. There's no way. No. Uh, his nuts are just being crushed by her backside as she's like riding them. Rabid. Sometimes they come in and out of the light and you're just looking at those little balloons and you're like, jesus, it's not flattering. I'm just going to put it out there. It's not flattering. And to be fair, when people have sex, you're not seeing all of the details when you're having sex. Right? So with this and where the angles are and what you're seeing and you're seeing, uh, it quite raw and ready. Yeah. You're seeing it from a position of like there's a reason why people don't have mirrors in their bedrooms and stuff like that. Because you don't want to catch a sight yourself. Like a slight fold in your back that you didn't realize was there before. When you get yourself into a particular position and you're just like, I'm fucking disgusted with myself. I wish I was dead. It's fucking horrid. Fucking horrid. It's such a deep fold as well. You could stick a pen in it and it would stay there. Uh, it's not flattering. But I will say I'd maybe give it about three stars because this is probably the racist of any of the scenes that we've covered. Um, when we talk about, I guess, dick scenes and stuff that we've done. And obviously this is episode like this is 48. Um, ah, this is a pretty kind of big moment for the podcast and that we're covering effectively a, uh, fairly kind of deep, hardcore sex scene that has a dick in it. And you see her genitalia as well. That's all completely on fucking show as well. It's all very gratuitous. Um, so yeah, I'm going to give it a three. I never thought in my puff, uh, I'd ever see his erect penis and his nuts in my lifetime. But, yeah, there you go. Wasn't that a treat?
Laura: Um, so for me, three is high. And I think I can go ahead and just join you on that platform because it is a lot. It is unsimulated sex. Like that is a first for us, certainly not the last, but can't wait. Yeah, but in terms of it being an unsimulated sex scenes, more than one, you never get a full body shot. You never see it out. You never see it free from being inside a woman. So you don't actually get the full effect. So in terms of full frontal male nudity, it's not really there. But it gets a pass just for the fact that how daring it is, uh, for the type of film that it is and for the actors that are there. I don't know, just for being unsimulated. Uh, but she has a lot more scenes where she's nude apart from him, not a ton. And it's never gross or gratuitous or anything. And I still know I don't know if I said it before, the more I think about it, I really don't think that the sex scenes are necessarily gratuitous. But again, well, that comes later. Okay. Uh, yeah, three is fine.
Ryan: Good.
Laura: Three is fine.
Laura: What about the film?
Ryan: Um, so I initially rated it four because I do like the story. Um, but I have questions about the ending and I have questions about some of the context. But there is actually a good film in this. I think there's a really good story in it. And I do think it looks nice. And to me, sometimes when a film looks really nice, that sometimes trumps a lot of the other kind of shortcomings that the film can have. Um, but I've rated it for this time, I think probably more sensibly. It probably deserves closer to a three or to three and a half. Just because of, obviously, some of the things I've just pointed out. Just thinking about it just a little bit longer. Um, I'm never going to watch the film again. I'm never going to watch it again. It's not that good. Um, but yeah, certainly I think there's a good film in this. I think there's a good story in here. Um, but for the things that I've noted already, um, yeah, I think it's nowhere near the heady heights of, uh, uh, the prior film that we've already covered.
Laura: For me, I gave it a two and a half. And I think that's too high because I'm annoyed. I'm more annoyed now than I was when we ended the film. It's maybe a two or a two and a quarter, but you can't put two and a quarter on letterbox, so I can keep it two and a half. It's fine. It doesn't matter. I'm not going to watch it again. I'm not going to think about it again. Um, I thought it was too long. I didn't understand a lot of the motivations. I did think that it was weird that all of a sudden, these people were just going to be murdering people, which is quite something to just not even be in war. I know that the country is at war. Like, the world is at war.
Ryan: The war was at home. The war is effectively being fought on their doorstep.
Laura: I understand, but just to, uh it's not like you were in the war and you came home. And then you're like, I'm going to start a grassroots movement. These women are involved as well, and they just go along with it. It's not even a thing. I don't know if it was because they were so young. She was a freshman at college when this, uh, all started.
Ryan: Well, here's the thing as, like, just to kind of point, uh, out, there is long standing tensions between China and Japan that are generations fine.
Laura: But I'm talking just as a human being to just go, we're going to kill this guy, and we're going to make it our mission as a group of friends to do a murder. And that's hard for me to grasp, no matter how angry you are, the tensions between countries and the oppression that you feel. But then again, I'm not there. I wasn't there. So sure, it probably happened. It just was a leap for me. I'm like, don't hurt anybody.
Laura: I didn't like this film very much. I don't know if I'd necessarily recommend it. It looked beautiful. I thought the acting was beautiful. Tony Long is beautiful.
Ryan: There's some really nice stuff in this.
Laura: Beautiful. Yeah, everyone's hot. And I appreciated, uh, watching them do their just this ain't Brokeback Mountain. And I'll watch Brokeback Mountain every goddamn day of my life if I would.
Ryan: I think it's a brave and daring piece of filmmaking. I just don't think it nails it.
Laura: No, but it is interesting. And I think that I love that he did it. Also, uh, Ang Lee refused to make changes in order to get an rating. I know that there's cuts of this, but he's just like, this is the cut of the film. This is the film that I made. There's some shafts in it. There's some labia. Like, you can see it all. And I'm okay with it. And that's the movie you're going to get. And I'm like, good for you.
Ryan: Well, he used the power of his Oscar, um, to great effect to do this story.
Laura: Absolutely. And before we cut out and, um, you're scaring me about the weather. I don't know what's going on.
Ryan: Real dark. It's real grim.
Laura: But one thing that I did want to talk about before we say goodbye is we were talking about how it's interesting, kind of the group of three films that we're talking about during this legacy. And how he went from Brokeback Mountain to Lutz Caution, uh, because it's quite different. And especially going back to, uh, going from making, like, an American English speaking film to kind of going back to maybe his roots.
Ryan: I was curious about this. Yeah.
Laura: So he said that he was in the mood for love, romantic love, for this period of my career, of my life. He said, um, after I worked on an American film, dealing with different with a different subject matter texture, with people, uh, polishing his skills or whatever, he said, I always feel the need to come back to my cultural roots, to reexamine, and also to use the skill and resources, so to speak. It's harder for me to make Chinese films because, first of all, psychologically, it's more personal. The texture is more personal and it hurts more, is what he said. But it was just him wanting to go back to his roots, um, and being able to yeah, you're right. Use his clout, use the Oscar to do something that he wanted to do.
Ryan: I think that's a clever way of doing it, um, because he's walking a path that many, um, eastern directors have made, where they've gone the jump from, uh, their film base, effectively, to try and recreate the same level of success, uh, in the Hollywood studio system, effectively. I think Ang Lee has been, he's been successful for the most part, but I think of the story of John Wu, and he was completely fucking homogenized over the course of like, ten years, and he was just like, fuck this. And then he literally just went back home and he started making far better fucking films over there. Um, yeah, I think angley, he's done the right thing and he's followed the right path. Ah, certainly of filmmakers, uh, of a cultural difference, um, that isn't fully understood in the Western world, and I think, uh, is neglected. Um, so I think for him to want to re examine, I guess, his roots from that certain point in his life, and use the clout that he's gathered up to that point, I think, yeah, I think he's doing it better than most.
Laura: John Wu came to America and made Face off.
Ryan: John Wu came to America after making quite a long string of very good individualistic action movies.
Laura: I understand, but don't say he's homogenized when he made Face Off here.
Ryan: He made Broken Arrow, and that is a fucking piece of shit.
Laura: He made Face Off has almost zero.
Ryan: Identity to the John Wu that everyone knows and loves. He also made fucking movies like Paycheck, and that film fucking sucks.
Laura: Uh face off.
Ryan: Homogenized to fuck and even face off. Here's the thing oh, my God. Fucking face off is still like face off could be better. Face off could actually be better. If the John Wu vision of hard boiled and hard target I still think hard target is fantastic.
Laura: That is a fantastic.
Ryan: It's also, like, really well edited and things. Like, there's a lot of, like a lot of that stuff just starts to get excised from his work. And I think the worst example is probably Mission Impossible, too, where it's more about the John Wu ethos, where it's like, well, we'll give him a bike and we'll see what he does with the bike and he does some cool shit with the bike. But then you're also, like, watching a fucking story with Tom Cruise, who looks stupid, right, with that hair? He was also against Degree Scott and Degree Scott's, like, on a bike with twin guns and stuff. And you have to be like, no, I think you need to don't do is this is bad. This is really bad.
Laura: Well, uh, thank you for joining us for the second part of The Legacy. And, uh, we'll catch you next time for the last of The Legacy, which you already probably know what it is, so enjoy. And, uh, I didn't really know what to say for this part. I never have good ideas. But coming to you from apartment two B, which is their sexy, uh, dust filled place where he almost rapes her.
Ryan: On the envelope, I said, coming to you from Tony Long's hard OOH. Yeah.
Laura: Okay. Well, then I've been Laura.
Ryan: I'm Ryan.
Laura: Uh, yeah. Goodbye.
Ryan: Just say bye. Jesus.
Laura: Bye bye, God.