In a quatrain Nostradamus stated: "In the year 2024, two self-proclaimed cinephiles who uncover full-frontal male nudity in cinema, will uncover Mike Leigh's NAKED". It's crazy right? We can hardly believe it ourselves.
In a quatrain Nostradamus stated: "In the year 2024, two self-proclaimed cinephiles who uncover full-frontal male nudity in cinema, will uncover Mike Leigh's NAKED". It's crazy right? We can hardly believe it ourselves.
But Nostradamus was right, we are covering Mike Leigh's NAKED. In a career best for David Thewlis, co-starring Lesley Sharp, Katrin Cartlidge, Gregg Cruttwell, Claire Skinner, Ewen Bremner et al., we dive deep into the seedy underbelly of urban London and it's nocturnal dwellers in what some have referred to as an "odyssey".
Warnings have been shelled out before but NAKED is one which takes you to a very dark place so be advised even if 50% of us still believes this was a "black comedy".
Laura: It. This movie was funnier than I thought it was going to be.
Ryan: I didn't find it funny in the slightest.
Laura: Uh, not even any tiny moment, some of the language.
Ryan: But I watch it with this feeling of dread.
Laura: Yeah.
Ryan: Like, I'm continually on edge because I've not, uh, to say that I've hung.
Ryan: Out with people specifically like this, but.
Ryan: I've met people who are kind of like this, where you're kind of always on edge around them because you have no idea what they're going to do. They're very unpredictable.
Laura: He's pretty funny. There's parts that I found amusing, not even necessarily that had thulus in it.
Ryan: Yeah, I mean, the bit where, um. No, I can't say that because that's not funny.
Laura: Oh, well, hello there. Welcome to On the BiTTE, the podcast that uncovers full frontal male nudity in cinema. My name is Laura, and I am joined by my co host, Ryan.
Ryan: Did you think Nostradamus predicted that we'd be here at this exact moment doing this exact film?
Laura: Yes. A prophet.
Ryan: All, uh, right.
Ryan: That was an answer.
Laura: Well, I'm excited to do this film because the last few films that we've covered have been nice. Nice.
Ryan: Well, hold on, hold on.
Laura: We can't. They have niceties within them. They're not bleak. This is quite bleak.
Ryan: Yeah.
Ryan: The film we're covering, kind of. I wouldn't say it's as relentless as, say, like, bad lieutenant, because I think bad Lieutenant is made with quite a level of malice behind it. Um, this one has at least kind of, like. It's malice, but with, like, a light hearted touch.
Laura: Um, malice with a bit of brevity sprinkled on top, kind of every now and again.
Ryan: But we do get to cover one of my favorite filmmakers, um, as well, today, which is nice. That doesn't happen often.
Laura: Oh, I don't think that's true.
Ryan: I don't think that's true either.
Ryan: I love it when we cut.
Ryan: Like, I'm always the one who pushes for these films.
Laura: Well, the film that Ryan pushed for is 1990 three's naked, uh, the black comedy drama, which is hilarious, because you, Ryan, would never say that this is, uh, any bit of a comedy, but I disagree. But that's because I also have to personally find comedy in think.
Ryan: Yeah, I think you can definitely find aspects of this film funny, certainly the characters and the way they talk and things, um, not the way that I'm kind of describing there, but the language and the use of the language and.
Ryan: Obviously kind of how these characters are situated, like, the way that they go.
Ryan: About their daily lives, you can find to be quite amusing because they're relatable. It's a Mike Lee thing. A lot of this is all kind of solidified, uh, in a lot of reality. And so, yeah, that's why.
Laura: So this film stars David Thulis, Leslie Sharp, Catherine Cartilage, and Greg Crutwell. And directed by Mike Lee.
Ryan: Yes.
Ryan: Mike Lee.
Laura: Oh, I'm excited. He makes me nervous.
Ryan: Who? Mike Lee?
Laura: Yeah.
Ryan: Why does he make you nervous? What, the man or his movies?
Laura: Maybe the dissection and kind of overall going over and talking about his films. I don't know if I'm up to the task, but luckily, I have you here to help me be smart, because.
Ryan: The minute you said, oh, I'm nervous.
Ryan: About Mike Lee, it's like you met.
Ryan: Him in an alleyway and he was holding a knife.
Laura: That has not happened.
Ryan: Okay, good.
Laura: I don't think he's that type of man. He seems like a nice boy.
Ryan: No, I met him at the film festival in 2007. This is the Edinburgh International Film Festival. Um, he was doing a kind of q and a over there. That was the same year I met Steven, um, Soderberg and I had a conversation with a japanese filmmaker, completely in Japanese, and I don't speak any Japanese.
Laura: Was it more of a one sided conversation?
Ryan: Very much, but I think he thought that I understood what he was saying. We were, like, having a cigarette moment, and, uh, yeah, then we kind of just, uh. Uh, passing in the night. Uh, ships passing in the night.
Laura: Adorable.
Ryan: Yeah, I just kind of nodded and waved, and that was it. Uh, I don't know his name.
Laura: Maybe if there's a day when you two meet again, your duolingo streak will come in handy.
Ryan: Potentially, yes. I might be able to say please hello, and maybe ask for water.
Laura: How do you say water in Japanese?
Ryan: Mizu.
Laura: There you go.
Ryan: Yeah.
Ryan: There you go.
Laura: So the synopsis pulled from Letterboxd is an unemployed Brit vents his rage on unsuspecting strangers as he embarks on a nocturnal London odyssey. I love that synopsis. It's one of the best ones I've read on this podcast. It is one sentence because I kind of started to write my own. He's just a guy pressing his anger amongst every single person that comes across his path.
Ryan: It's like, yeah, his, uh, lifetime angst and, uh, I guess, like, his turmoil, he just feels the need to share it.
Laura: His conspiracy theories, his anxieties, his, uh, hate.
Ryan: Yeah, we're definitely going to get into.
Ryan: A lot of what? Because this is probably a career best for Thulus.
Ryan: Like, honestly. And you can't count Harry Potter.
Laura: I wouldn't count Harry Potter as being one of his best roles. It's quite popular.
Ryan: I know you were going to bring it up.
Laura: I am going to bring. I'm not.
Ryan: What's his name in the Harry Potter movies.
Laura: You're going to ruin my joke. Shut up. You're going to ruin my joke if you make me say it now. Don't I have it written down? Stop it. Um, hold on.
The tagline for this film, which I want to get out there before you do Mike Lee, is when unbalance leads to.
Ryan: Yeah, I've been thinking about that tagline for a little bit, trying to figure it, uh, out.
Laura: Yeah.
Ryan: Because it's quite enigmatic, which is fine, I think, um, I'll take the synopsis over the tagline.
Ryan: Yeah.
Ryan: No, I think the tagline is not drawing you into the film because the.
Ryan: Official poster, like, the poster of it.
Ryan: Is like, it's obviously David Thulis's character, Johnny. And it's like, seen between the legs of the character that we finally meet is Sophie, and she's got those fishnet stockings on and stuff. I don't know if that's kind of.
Ryan: Like, uh, a little bit of a.
Ryan: Misrepresentation about what this film is.
Laura: Also, that didn't happen.
Ryan: No, that never happened.
Laura: Because it's actually the character of Jeremy that interacts with those fishnet stockings.
Ryan: Yes. So I feel like it was a.
Ryan: Piece of, uh, inadvertent commas. Clever, uh, marketing on the behalf of the marketing team.
Laura: Also, the title of the film mixed with the poster makes you go, ooh, sexy.
Ryan: I mean, I did like. Because we listened to the commentary for the film as well. I did like, when Thulis was like, he wanted to call the film apeshit, but that was quickly dropped.
Laura: He said, um, this film is not sexy.
Ryan: No.
Laura: Not even for, um, a moment.
Ryan: Not one part.
Laura: No matter how hard you try to get a boner, it just doesn't come up.
Ryan: No.
Laura: Um, nearly a boner to be found.
Ryan: No. They talk about their boners in the movie. Um, but we come across some incredibly unsavory characters. Um, let's not talk about unsavory characters just yet, because we're going to talk.
Laura: About one savory character, which is Mike Lee. Right.
Ryan: I love Mike Lee. He's a lovely, lovely savory.
Ryan: Ah, yeah.
Ryan: Very smart, very humorous individual.
Um, so we're talking about Mike Lee today. He is an obe. And I wrote this down FRSL. I have no idea what that means, but it means he's got a knighthood and also a fellowship. So he's one of the front runners for giving the ring back to Mordor.
Laura: Hell, yeah.
Ryan: If they ever have to.
Ryan: Um, but he's a director, screenwriter, producer, actor. And as you might have already guessed, he's gained numerous accolades and awards, and I'm not going to bore you with all of those.
Laura: Fellow of the Royal Society of Literature.
Ryan: Yes.
Laura: All right, go on.
Ryan: His contributions to theater, acting, film, um, I would say, are quite considerable. He started as an actor, he trained as an actor. He got a scholarship to RADa. Um, I've never known what Rada stood for. I thought it was like the royal.
Laura: Royal Academy of Drama.
Ryan: Isn't it like the Royal Academy of Dance and acting or something? Or dramatic arts? You know what it is? It's probably the Royal Academy of Dramatic Arts. Yes, it m. Yeah. Uh, he got a scholarship. He went to Radha. He left Rada because he didn't agree with their ideals. And again, I won't kind of bore you with that kind of chapter of his life. Um, but he went to London. He saw John Casavetti's shadows. So this is something that me and him kind of relate to a little bit. Shadows, uh, from 1959. And if anyone's familiar with that movie, it's the wholly improvised John Casavetti's classic. Um, that's kind, uh, of seen as like, the hallmark of american independent cinema. But, uh, Mike Lee has worked in tv.
Ryan: He goes to work at the BBC.
Ryan: He makes, in the 1970s, about nine tv plays, one of which is Abigail's party. And I would tell you to go find the version, uh, that stars Alison Stedman. Um, that is a fantastic piece of either cinema, tv, tv, play, theater. Um, it's fantastic. I genuinely, uh, recommend watching that. I watched that in university and it's, uh, a real treat, that one. But particularly that version. I would say, go watch that version. He's also, uh, married to Alison Stedman, as know, she's in a bunch of movies and stuff like that. But people will remember her more from Gwen and Stacey as, uh, she's the mum. She's the mum character.
Laura: Okay. Yeah.
Ryan: And she's very good in that. She's maybe the standout part in that entire series, to be honest.
Um, so we kind of can't talk about Mike Lee without kind of talking about, I guess, the style of Mike Lee. It's very particular, it's very specific and I kind of want to truncate this section a little bit as well, because this will make, I guess, what we cover in the film a little bit more understandable, I suppose. Um, but quoting Mike Lee, um, as to his style, he says that he makes stylistic films indeed. But style does not become a substitute for truth and reality. It's, uh, an integral, organic part of the whole thing. So his process, which I find very interesting, is that he comes to a bunch of actors with a bunch of ideas, and then over the course of several weeks, even months, they improvise and they develop the characters effectively on the spot, giving a lot of the rein to the actors to develop their characters, develop their backstories, and just basically figure out exactly these characters journeys and then how that's going to all kind of come together when obviously they go to film it so effectively. They have this very kind of undisciplined, kind of pre production process that then is kind of whittled down and it's refined and it's distilled to then what is effectively what gets shot and what gets blocked out and all that sort of thing.
Laura: Um, it's very complicated and interesting and a really fascinating way to do. It's not everyone would want to do that.
Ryan: It's almost the polar. I think I brought up William freakin earlier today. He's kind of like the polar opposite to this, where he's like, he doesn't bother with backstory, he doesn't bother with trying to figure out what the character was doing before this scene happens. He's very much a kind of like one take wonder, and for him, that works, and he's made plenty of films that way. But then this is obviously a slightly more involved process. And I don't want to kind of read massive screech of stuff from Wikipedia, but this is kind of the best distillation that I can find on the process. But basically he starts with some ideas and how he thinks things might develop, but does not reveal all of his intentions to the cast, who gradually discover their fates and act out their responses. Initial preparations in private with Lee, and then the actors are introduced to each other in the order that the characters would have met in their lives. Intimate moments are explored that will not even be referred to the final film to build insight and understanding of the history, character and personal motivation. So for the most part, what you found, and we found with the commentary and stuff like that, is that the actors themselves have very specific reasons for why they're doing things, but that's not intrinsically shown in the course of the film, and for most parts, they don't feel a need for that to even be explained in the films either. So you will find kind of like with his films, is that they follow a kind of like naked itself, I find to be a little bit meandering, but that's just by the virtue of this beast that's being created, where we're kind of following a character who drifts around for the most part. And there's obviously secular characters that are obviously kind of part of this bigger understanding of this story. But, yeah, I kind of feel like there's a very kind of improvisational nature about these films, but I always feel like every time I watch them, they're incredibly refined and they feel very tight when they're kind of put together.
Um, but we'll talk about some of Mike Lee's actual filmography, and then we can move on to naked. So his first film starts in bleak moments in 1971, followed by meantime in 1983, high hopes in 1988. Life is sweet in 1990. Naked comes out in 1993, followed by secrets and lies 1996, which is easily my favorite of his films.
Laura: It is great.
Ryan: I love that movie. What did these secrets and lies.
Laura: Oh, yeah. When he dropped that titular line, I almost threw up.
Ryan: Timothy Spal.
Laura: What a treasure.
Ryan: One absolute treasure. Career Girls in 97, Topsy Turvy in 1999, all or nothing in 2002. Vera Drake 2004, which is also a very good movie.
Laura: True.
Ryan: Happy go lucky in 2008. Another year, 2010. Mr. Turner in 2014, and Peter Lou in 2018.
Laura: Wow.
Ryan: So one of my understandings, he's heavily influenced by Ozu and Felini and stuff, and it's all about kind of a realism and a truth.
And I think Mike Lee is a very interesting kind of director to kind of COVID on this podcast because we.
Ryan: Talk a lot about truth.
Ryan: But for him, his initial ideas for naked, or at least kind of my understanding of his initial ideas for naked, was that he really just wanted to make a film about someone who was inherently vile.
Laura: Yeah.
Ryan: And that's really kind of where the germination of naked kind of comes from, basically.
Laura: Yeah. Um, it's interesting that he wanted to create a film about someone who's vile, and then you have your main character who is. But not to his core. I don't think he's completely, uh, beyond being able to be redeemed. I think he has a chance to potentially be redeemed, as opposed to the Jeremy character, who is just a sociopath. Sociopath.
Ryan: Yeah.
Ryan: He's on a crash course, basically. Um, yeah, I think I do, like every single one of the characters in this film. And it is kind of on that basis, like this, kind of. Kind of debauched.
Ryan: I love characters that are super fucked.
Ryan: Up that are, in this case, relatively quite scary and intimidating. Um, but the thing is, Mike Lee plants the seed and then the actors kind of grow from that seed.
Ryan: That idea.
Laura: Yeah.
Ryan: So I guess going into this because the film's heavily criticized for misogyny and, uh, the way it treats its female characters and stuff like that. But the characters were created by the actors in the film.
Laura: I don't think the men are treated particularly well either. No one is treated well.
Ryan: I feel like there's certainly a perspective on it. And, I mean, an audience reaction, a, uh, critic's reaction can be very different from the ideas. Because being close to the pieces, well, Mike Lee and certainly the actors involved in it, they're not going to be looking at how externally it's going to be reacted to. Like, they're kind of very much working within the, um. You know, I understand where some of that criticism comes from, but I myself, I don't really see it. I kind of feel like the story is what it is, and it goes in that direction for very particular reasons.
Laura: I just don't see either why that would be such a big deal.
Ryan: No.
Laura: Why can't you have a movie that's a little bit misogynistic? I don't understand the problem with that.
Ryan: I feel like, also for this, I.
Ryan: Almost feel like as well, that you're putting present ideals or present, um, I guess like understandings onto something that was made at least 20 something 30, almost years ago at this point. I think that, yeah, there's certainly a certain sect of the mainstream where it's like, it's saccharine sweet and it's sugary, and it's there to kind of just appeal.
Ryan: Appeal to everybody.
Laura: Uh, well, that's not what this is.
Ryan: No.
Laura: This is probably the most rapey film we've done.
Ryan: Yes.
Laura: Uh, so far. And not that I try to stay away from those things, but I don't love them. I used to tell you, if you're watching something on streaming, it'll tell you, oh, this is rated r or, uh, mature for x, y and z. And if it says rape, I'm like, nah, I'm not into this. But for whatever reason, this film, and I'm not going to say it doesn't bother me. Like, rape doesn't bother me, of course. But there's something about it that just doesn't it doesn't hit you as rough as some of their films maybe do. For me personally, I know it's maybe.
Ryan: Because there are certain elements of it that you find. You find amusing and you genuinely do find them amusing, and they are amusing. The issue I have is that you can say it's a dark comedy and I think there's some weird and peculiar. I would even use the word quirky because certainly a lot of these characters have kind of weird, quirky traits. Um, even though deep down you kind of really boil it down. These are some really dark, messed up people who are kind of on a track to almost like a self destruction. Um, and certainly, I'd say everyone in.
Laura: This film that are the main. Your kind of main. Four characters. Everyone except for Louise.
Ryan: Yeah, there's a real burden of loneliness that kind of latches on to kind of each of these characters as well. Um, but the thing is, you can say that there's rape in it. And that's not to say that we don't watch stuff with those sorts of ideas. It's just not like preferred viewing.
Laura: Yeah. If we're going to sit down on a Tuesday evening, I'm not going to be like, put on the rapiest film you have.
Ryan: Yay. Let's just watch irreversible for like the 20th time.
Laura: Uh.
Ryan: If you can watch something that isn't like that, there's a time and.
Ryan: A place for that.
Ryan: And I guess because we're looking at this from an examination point of view, I would also agree with you that it's not super gratuitous. Uh, but there's an ickiness about it.
Ryan: This is very dirty.
Ryan: It's very gray. I think it's shot particularly well. There's a lot of screenshottable things in it.
Ryan: It feels like it's been shot with.
Ryan: Like a bleach bypass.
Laura: Dick.
Ryan: Ah, Pope, who shoots all of Mike Lee's stuff.
Laura: Um, one of the two famous popes.
Ryan: Yeah, I mixed them up with Bill Pope, and Bill Pope is the other pope.
Laura: Who.
Ryan: There's two popes.
Ryan: My two popes. Um, so Dick Pope is the more.
Ryan: I would say.
Ryan: I, uh, was going to say classical.
Ryan: But he's the Brit. Yeah, he's the older. He's the Brit. He's out there shooting stuff he's worked in.
Ryan: Know there's other things with Mike Lee and stuff like that. And there's not really anything of real other notes that I feel like Dick Pope has done. And that's not to say know he's not but Bill Pope obviously is the. He shot like fucking quantum mania, the matrix bound. He worked with the, um, uh, the. He did the Sam Raimi Spider man, the second one and the third, certainly. Ah, there's a comparison there, but yeah, I mixed up that pope with another pope. The film itself, like a lot of Mike Lee's things, is that they feel very organic. So, like the story, I always found that with naked anyway, because I hadn't really watched naked that much. And naked was one of my least watched Mike Lee movies because you said.
Laura: You weren't sure if you had actually seen it. Seen it. What did you come up with? Had you seen it?
Ryan: I, uh-huh.
Ryan: Had seen it and I'd kind of.
Ryan: Forgotten about it because I saw it.
Laura: When I was maybe in high school, or maybe just.
Ryan: I always thought it was a lot more controversial than it is now. I'm maybe a little bit more desensitized now, but I remember seeing at the time and going, this is like, not.
Ryan: To say it's too close to home, but I've dealt with fucked up people.
Ryan: In my life and those sorts of apartments and that sort of dressing and the way things are.
And I'm like, yeah, no, I'm not really into this. Not into being reminded of all this fucked up stuff.
Laura: Well, the film at ah, times, and maybe throughout a lot of the film, is pretty agonizing and very stressful to watch.
Ryan: Um, it feels quite visceral.
Laura: Yeah.
Ryan: And there's a way about it that.
Ryan: Makes it feel like, it's like a.
Ryan: Collection of vignettes that are kind of tied together. Certainly when Thulis goes on his quote unquote odyssey, um, it feels like little theatrical vignettes with the people that he meets and stuff.
Laura: So we've already mentioned that David Thulis plays Johnny, who's just really loquacious, very verbose. He's incredibly harsh.
Ryan: Yeah.
Laura: Very direct.
Ryan: Well, confrontational, I would say.
Laura: Yeah. Angry.
Ryan: He's intimidating.
Laura: He, to me, is like a disease that's walking around infecting everyone, making everyone mad, stressing everybody out and just tipping them over the edge.
Ryan: I would say he's vile, but he's.
Ryan: Vile by his own design and his making. Oh, of course, he's a man of judgment. So he pontificates this. He pontificates that he's a master pontificator. He'll quote a book or he'll be seen reading, or he'll be doing this.
Laura: Incredibly intelligent, but also just, well, his intelligence is.
Ryan: He uses his intelligence to kind of spite people with, um.
Ryan: And I feel like that's just a.
Ryan: Way in which he kind of gets under people's skins. And he just kind of creates and develops quite a level of conflict and strife. But it's out of the sum and nothing. There's nothing to gain from what he's doing.
Ryan: But he's also like a drifter.
Ryan: And he's kind of going from place to place and it's like, oh, I can't stay in Manchester anymore. And he feels like the world owes him something.
Ryan: M he walks with like he has.
Ryan: A chip on his shoulder.
Laura: Yeah. I don't know if I believe that he's a drifter 100% of the time. This is just three days of his life. And he has a house, he lives in Manchester, he has somewhere to live. He's not a homeless guy. But I think that from the beginning of the film, when it opens, he is on the run a bit.
Ryan: Yeah.
Ryan: I do also feel like he's yearning for something that life just can't provide him with. And he's just not able to find.
Ryan: It because he's constantly going on about.
Ryan: How people are boring and life is boring and isn't this and the monotony, um, and the on we of everyday life and how people are doing it. And he feels like he's better than everybody else. And he feels like he deserves something better when in obviously actuality, his mindset and the way that he's going through life is that he's just damaging everything and he's destroying everything that he touches. Um, but there's an inherent kind of.
Ryan: Charisma to him that means that he's.
Ryan: Able to kind of float back and forth.
Ryan: So it's kind of weird.
Ryan: And he's certainly very good at weaseling his way and latching onto people.
Laura: People have said that this character is magnetic, and I would not agree. No, not for me.
Ryan: Yeah, he's a leech. Um, apparently, he's like a parasitic individual.
Laura: Yeah. So, as you were saying, these actors make their characters and they come up with this background that maybe even the director doesn't necessarily know all of the little nuances of their characters that they've kind of come up with. But the background reading that David Thulis did for his part, he would read Voltaire and the teachings of the Buddha, uh, and the Bible and the like. Those are the type of things that he was kind of pulling from to make his character what he was like.
Ryan: Well, he's a genius. This, um, feel like. I feel like, yeah, he has a lot to say, but then it just doesn't have any substance to it.
Laura: Yeah, of course.
Ryan: And there's od little moments in the film where he'll say something. And I think it's like when he's interacting with Sophie. And I think this is one of the prime reasons why he doesn't really like Sophie, is that she's like, what's that shite? And it's like, well, though, that's something I came up with. And it's like, uh, she's also too needy.
Laura: It's very annoying.
Ryan: Yeah, she's a very sad, she's saddest character. Yeah. She has no direction and almost no purpose. And she's kind of just this frail creature who's just kind of looking like she's just looking for something. And she does kind of latch on to him. Even though he's aggressive, he's violent, he takes the piss out of her and it's like she's just desperately trying to find something to latch onto to give her life a little bit of meaning.
Laura: Uh, so this was David Thulis's second film with Mike Lee. The first one he did was life is sweet that you mentioned from 1990. And I was just wondering how old he was when they filmed it. And he was around 29.
Ryan: Wow.
Laura: And this is Greg Kutwell's film debut.
Ryan: Wow.
Laura: And he is so incredibly recognizable to me. And we were talking about, where is he from? Maybe he was in a lot of tv or something, but I think maybe it's from his character in the Brendan Fraser George of the jungle.
Ryan: Yeah, I thought I recognized.
Ryan: Yeah, well, I thought I recognized him.
Ryan: From a bunch of tv stuff, like tv drama, tv comedy things.
Ryan: Um, that's probably a longer list.
Laura: Terrifying. In this movie.
Ryan: He is awful. Yeah, he is genuinely awful. And he never answers the question of whether or not he's quite well off, but he's definitely well off. Or at least he has a these. I mean, that question he asks to the masseuse and she still goes out to dinner with him where he's like, do you think women like being raped?
Laura: Yeah.
Ryan: And it's like his second line in the entire film really sets the. And you're like, what the fuck?
Laura: And then obviously that scene, it was so telling, but also so beautifully shot. He's laying on this massage table, face up and it's shot down by his legs. So he's got a towel kind of over his torso and his thighs, but it's just shot. So you're kind of like looking in between his legs. But it's all dark.
Ryan: Yeah.
Laura: It's so strange. Most of the shots of this man are of his butt or his junk with underwear on.
Ryan: Yeah. He goes away wearing, um, little black undies. Like Lacey, almost like Lacey tighty.
Laura: I wonder if they were even his or if they were hers.
Ryan: They might well, actually, uh, maybe they were. I don't know. You know what? That adds another dimension to his character. Certainly with some of the things that he does in the film, it makes.
Laura: So much sense for that character to do. To wear, like, women's underwear.
Ryan: Yeah. I mean, the best way to describe him, just because of some of the vile things that he does. And I mean, I say vile in the night. He is a, uh, sociopath. Uh, he's a sadist. He's awful.
Laura: So you mentioned that Mike Lee wanted to make this film about unacceptable male behavior.
Ryan: Right.
Laura: So, uh, Mike Lee said, this is why you have the character of Jeremy, who plays the landlord. Question mark. Um, he said, although you would call Johnny's behavior unacceptable, it comes out of frustration. The landlord is infinitely worse. His actions come from a very black place. Um, and the actor Greg, uh, Kretwell said, I would go and do improvisations in the real world with Mike kind of following him around. He said he went into Selfridges as Jeremy and ended up picking up a girl from the makeup counter. And then he went around the corner and Mike said, come out of character, because that's what they would like. He'd be in character until Mike said, stop. And he goes, we just had to leave her. Any improvisation would stop if it was going too far sexually or if it was going to get violent. Because there was other times that they mentioned where between Archie, played by you, and, uh, Bremner and Johnny, where some of the improvisations would get violent and they would fight and people would call the cops in the street.
Ryan: Yeah. Ewan Bremner is fantastic in the film. And I've seen like 500 versions of this character in Scotland, uh, who are like, yelling in the streets off their fucking head, screaming somebody's name, probably their girlfriend. They're high, they're on fucking drugs, they're drunk, and they're just ready to go. They're just ready to square go at any moment. Fucking notice. And it's obvious that, um, what's ruined Bremer's name? Archie. Because then there's Maggie. And Maggie's obviously the reference to. Subtle reference to Thatcher. Um, Maggie's played by Susan, uh, Vidler, who's in train, uh, spotting she's the one that has the, um. Yeah, she's very good in the film as, um. Yeah, it's just. It's deeply sad when you meet her. But he just lay it you. And Bremer plays it like point fucking perfect.
Laura: Yeah.
Ryan: Um, and it's just, ah, yeah, he's fucking terrifying. And there's hundreds of them running around in Scotland. Right. Um. Ah, it. Yeah, the film has a very particular look. It's very kind of bleached out. So it's got like a kind of bleach bypass look about the whole thing. So it kind of instills a real sense of just like dread.
Laura: Almost like monochromatic.
Ryan: Yeah, it's just like, just on the fence of almost being black and white. Because if it was black and white, there'd be almost like a romantic nature about it. Uh, but because all of the colors just completely drained out of everything. It just feels like it's got no, like it's just all their souls being sucked out of it by these people.
Laura: Speaking, um, of monochromatic. Um, Greg, uh, Crutwell also said, know, they'd spent so many weeks being really horrible to each other and he said for one of the sessions, he'd be out in the street in a pair of black pants, black underwear, and it was right in the middle of winter. And he goes, this was before Dalston was full of hipsters and the neighbors were all out of the window going, fuck off. Get out of here. In the streets.
Ryan: That's kind of a nice way of doing, uh, it because, yeah, it's probably not the first time. They've probably maybe seen that sort of thing.
But with Jeremy's character, um, there's a couple of occasions, obviously, he is the main source of the depictions of very disgusting outward kind of acts of male, um, violence, pomposity and privilege, basically. Um, because, I mean, there's that one scene with the. When he's in the. You have the restaurant. Everything he says is fucking disgusting.
Laura: Yes.
Ryan: But then at one point we cut to him in his apartment with, uh, Elizabeth Barrington, who was. She was the waitress at the restaurant. So it wasn't even with the girl. He was actually with the masseuse. Um, and takes her back. They're like, that scene just takes a turn.
Laura: Yeah, because he's rapey. He rapes everybody.
Ryan: He rapes her. Um, he rapes every woman, fights her. He says that thing where he's just like, I'm going to commit suicide by 40. And he's just like, he's making me.
Laura: Run through my notes too fast. I'm going to commit suicide on my 40th birthday. I don't want to be old. That's funny. But it's funny, funny, funny. But also it's happening while he's about to rape this woman. So it's like so conflicting, all of these moments funny. You don't think that's funny?
Ryan: No, I don't.
Laura: I thought it was very. It's such a random thing to say. You're on top of this woman who's screaming, and then you're saying, I don't want to be old. I'm like, what are you talking about?
Ryan: That is something someone says and they've got nothing to lose.
Laura: Yeah, he's insane. Yeah.
Ryan: Uh, and he knows he can get away with it. And a lot of that, there's loads of rape. But I mean, he also, when he invites himself into the house, he rapes Sophie. And Sophie's under the understanding it's the landlord. It's like, all right, well, here we, um.
Laura: That, no, I mean, that took a lot longer to come about. It started off with, it's this guy, start to finish. This guy's kind of interesting and let's see where this goes. And then he starts immediately being violent. She's like, ah, yeah. And then it just gets worse from there.
Ryan: Just gets worse and worse and worse, basically.
Laura: Um, so this film starts with. What the audience is understanding is that it starts with rape right off the bat. I mean, the title screen hasn't even come up, so you're in a dark alley who you understand to eventually be Johnny is raping this woman. And I think from what I can understand from the filmmaker's perspective is that it's meant to be ambiguous. This started off consensual, but I mean, obviously the moment there's a. No, the moment that there's. That's rape. That's full on rape. You can't say it's ambiguous when the woman is scraping. So that's why he has to leave and that's why he ends up going to London and going on this journey. Right, yeah. Uh, so it's rough from start to finish with that kind of thing.
Ryan: Um, but it doesn't really let up. And it does kind of come to a crescendo at the end where it's like it just gets to its darkest, blackest place, its most nightmarish place.
Laura: We're not going in order like I thought we were because I was saving my Harry Potter reference, which is in the beginning of the movie when he meets Sophie.
Ryan: Okay.
Laura: Um, but I was going to mention, just because I wrote it down, that the house that they film in, that Louise and Sophie and Sandra live in, is this like victorian, kind of neogothic structured house. Um, but that was a real location. So they were able to shoot the externals, um, the exteriors, the interiors all in the same place. So it gave it a really realistic feeling and very claustrophobic at times.
Ryan: Yeah, big time.
Laura: Um, but it did make me laugh in the beginning when Johnny's speaking to Sophie and they're having a bit of a flirt and he says, I used to be a werewolf, but I'm all right now. And I'm like, you played a werewolf in Harry Potter. Sorry, that's just funny to me.
Ryan: I've heard that line from family members all the way through my life. Yeah, used to be a werewolf where I'm all right.
Laura: No.
Ryan: Yeah. See?
Laura: Jeez.
Ryan: Yeah. Because when I heard it, I just went, oh, yeah, I've heard that a hundred times. If you watch naked for anything, um, watch it for the dialogue and the delivery. Um, the dialogue and the way that it's delivered, the way that it's put together, it's second to none.
Laura: Honestly, it's agonizing to me. It's agonizing. Every word that comes out of his mouth, I roll my eyes, I find him despicable. I find him just so irritating.
Ryan: Yeah.
Laura: I have no sympathy. It's kind of in the beginning of the movie. So do you mind if we jump into that penis scene?
Ryan: Yes.
Laura: Hooray.
So this comes in at 17 minutes and about 10 seconds. So this is after Johnny shows up at, uh, Louise's house, who is his ex girlfriend from Manchester. Yeah.
Ryan: This is the reason why he's in London. Anyways, he got a postcard from her to say that this was where she was living now, because they lived together in Manchester at one point.
Laura: They dated for a year. Right?
Ryan: Yeah, they dated for about a year. And then she left, kept in contact with, um, them. And I don't think she ever at any point, thought she was ever going to see him again.
Laura: Yeah. Because from what we've seen, their relationship, obviously, they have a deep, deep, deep background and a deeper connection. But from what we've seen, when you're starting off at the beginning of the film with Johnny and he is involved in a rape, did. Done a rape. And then he goes to see this woman and she looks horrified when she sees him for the first time. And then you have her roommate, who's a, uh, bit she's not simple or anything, but she's troubled, incredibly troubled. And she's flirting with this guy. And they're having a power struggle between these two women.
Ryan: Sophie's also jobless. She's on the doll. She's drinking in the middle of the day. She's probably not having the best of times. But she's.
Laura: You've got this dude who's paying attention to her that doesn't stop talking, who seems incredibly intelligent. And she, as a self destructive person, at least in the moment, is like, hell, yeah. This piece of ass just walked into my.
Ryan: Um. Yeah, the thing is, Johnny and Louise's relationship, certainly from this initial meeting, is it's incredibly passive aggressive.
Laura: That's also. I think that's also their.
Ryan: Yeah, I think that's just the way they've been with each other.
Laura: That's your northern humor. Very dry.
Ryan: Very dry. Yeah, very, very dry.
Laura: Well, as you could probably tell from watching the film, when you have Sophie and Johnny flirting quite a bit, it ends up getting. Not sexy. But sex happens.
Ryan: Sex does happen.
Laura: Sex does happen.
Ryan: Yes. They end up having sex immediately. Starts in the lounge, gets them up the stairs, which I thought was kind of weird because they have sex on the couch. Then the next shot is them going up the stairs and they're wearing their trousers. Did you not wonder that?
Laura: I didn't notice.
Ryan: Right. Unless he did it out. He's fly.
Laura: He does do that, though, later on in the film. He does that too.
Ryan: Yeah. He does a little bit of a, uh, semi rape, I guess.
Laura: That's a difficult one.
Ryan: He does like an aggressive sex thing.
Laura: Yeah. Um, that was an interesting bit of commentary from the actor from that point. Kind of describing how, uh, it's hard to even describe because it's less about the violence than the reward. It's like any type of, um, attention she can get is positive for her. So even if it's negative attention, like violence, m there's still some sort of reward in it for her, which is like, just difficult. It's a difficult thing.
Ryan: Yeah.
Laura: Um, but that's not where we're at now. It's just casual and question mark fun. I don't know. I guess it is sex.
Ryan: It's kind of like means to an end. It's like they started so they'll like. That's kind of what it looks like.
Laura: He seems incredibly disconnected and just like it means nothing to him. None of this means anything to him.
Ryan: And this scene, as they're having sex is intercut with Louise in her bedroom. Um, yeah. Who's kind of. For a lot more. There's a lot more kind of hidden secret kind of characterization going, um, under the surface with Louise's character, I find, because certainly she comes to some decisions and her story is a lot brighter because I feel like she's a little bit. She's a little stronger than, uh, a lot of the other female characters in the film. Um. But, yeah, I think we see her in her bedroom and then it's like the aftermath of the sex, so to.
Laura: Speak, of the Sophie Johnny sex. Yeah.
Ryan: And Sophie's lying down and then.
Laura: And he's just sitting there looking kind of off into the.
Ryan: Yeah.
Laura: Blank face. And that's when he gets up and he did not put his pants back on.
Ryan: Completely naked.
Laura: Walks kind of towards the camera and just passes it and, um, kind of mid torso.
Ryan: You see everything. It's a little bit dark.
Laura: It's a little bit dark. But that thing walks right towards the camera.
Ryan: Oh, it's right in the camera.
Laura: Right.
Ryan: And I did wonder, where is he going? Like, where is he trying to do?
Laura: But then maybe he just had to pee.
Ryan: Well, I think the next scene is that he doesn't go to sleep. At no point do we ever see Johnny go to sleep once. Like, he is just the end.
Laura: At the very end, after he gets.
Ryan: The shit kicked out of him. Yeah, I think he doesn't wake up. He doesn't wake up.
Laura: Well, I mean, he does eventually, but he didn't die.
Ryan: Yeah, he didn't die. But no, what we mean is, like, it took someone kicking the shit out of him twice to, uh, make him go to bed.
Laura: That was three days. Three days, three nights of no sleep.
Ryan: Yeah. Because I feel like he just gets up and he goes downstairs and he reads that book. And then Louise sees him in the morning. But, yeah, no, um. That scene is interesting because it's, uh, very truthful. It's very realistic.
Laura: Which part? The sex scene or the.
Ryan: This shot of him walking? Yeah, I kind of feel like I'm like, huh? Yeah. I got a kind of deep respect for that moment because, yeah, you're spoiled by it, obviously, with the sex and stuff. And obviously there's a level of gratuity to it as well, where you're kind of just like, uh, I don't want to see you anymore. And that one moment at least feels innocent, know.
Laura: Yeah. She's just sleeping and just kind of leaves her there to be alone.
Ryan: Because you would expect. Because of, obviously, the nature of maybe Jeremy, at later point, you probably see a little bit more, uh, know what was going on there. But you're kind of thankful by the end that you don't really, um, because of how far that character kind of just takes. Also takes his. I mean, he has that one line and it's like when everything kind of.
And obviously there's another character that we're not really kind of going into, Sandra, who's mentioned quite an awful lot. She's like a mystery, but she's kind of off in Zimbabwe. Uh, I don't know. She's a nurse.
Laura: Um, yeah, she's just hanging out with her, helping people.
Ryan: But, like, in one of the lines that was, uh, Jeremy goes, I hope I haven't given you AIDS, Sophie. And everyone's just like, jesus Christ.
Laura: And he's like, just adjust. I screamed funny. I screamed when he said that. You got to be kidding me.
Ryan: Fucking hell.
Laura: As if it wasn't bad enough, his tiny little pants. His tiny little butt.
Ryan: But the thing that gets them out of the house. The thing that gets Jeremy out of the house is the fact that, uh, Louise stands up to him and says, I'll cut your dick off. Pretty much, yeah. Um, and calls it maggot dick.
Laura: I wonder. There's a lot to break down, but I did think maybe that was just something in the character, like the character building of Jeremy. Why he's not naked, because he seems incredibly comfortable with his body. He walks around as soon as he walks in, basically, to Louise and Sophie's place. He's only in his underwear and is completely comfortable there. Walks around and it's terrifying.
Ryan: Well, we know he goes, yeah, we know he looks after himself. He goes to the gym and he gets massages and stuff like that.
Laura: He's a very slight man, but he's so menacing and he's very, very scary. But it makes me think, because there's a moment where I believe the first time that Louise sees him, she comes in the door and he's walking down the stairs. And all you can see is his junk, basically at eye level with her. And you don't really see the rest of his body. And I thought at that moment, how menacing would it have been or would it have been funny? I'm not sure if he was completely naked.
Ryan: Well, that's the thing, is, like, Louise and Sophie have no idea who the fuck this guy is. Yeah. When Sandra returns, she has had a Dallian swift, this guy who's not just calling himself Jeremy, but also calling himself Sebastian, which is also kind of super fucked up.
Laura: Yes.
Ryan: And she's looking at his wallet and being like, who's this guy? Who's this guy? The thing is, a lot of Jeremy's actions, and I know he's not, like, the focus point of the film, but he is fascinating by the level of cruelty he inflicts on the people in his life.
Laura: Yes.
Ryan: But, yeah, it just feels like it just comes from his place of his privilege. And I think it just oozes that, uh, level of privilege because he just walks out of the place, he gets in his porsche and he just drives away. There's no level of consequence to any of his actions as well.
Laura: No. I did wonder about his motivations. There's so much that's alluded to, which is a testament to their deep, deep character building. But you have these two male characters, your main two boys. You've got Johnny and Jeremy. Each person other than Sophie and Louise seem to kind of flow in and out of Johnny's life. Right. Every interaction he has are by people kind of passing through him. Whereas you have Jeremy, who barges into people's lives and doesn't leave. So he inserts himself into every single person's life to cause misery. So it's an interesting kind of difference between the two male characters.
Ryan: Yeah, it's a really interesting, uh, juxtaposition, like a dynamic that's kind of alive and thriving in the film as well. But I do think the reason why. Yeah, because each of the characters is enigmatic, which almost immediately to me, makes them far more interesting. So much more interesting when you're just like, what the fuck has gotten you into this position in your life? And that, to me, I just think is like the crux of interest within a Mike Lee movie. Honestly.
Laura: I found the moments where Johnny was speaking with that security guard, Brian.
Ryan: Yeah, poor, uh, Brian.
Laura: The sweetest. Like one of the sweetest characters ever.
Ryan: Um, and then again, another man who's like, another character who's just, like, played by crippling loneliness.
Laura: Yeah, it's just interesting when their whole dialogue, it's kind of talking about the pressures and the paranoia of the upcoming 21st century. Right? Like 1999 coming up. Doom and gloom. The end of the world. Y two k. That. I remember that. And this is only 1993.
Ryan: Yeah, well, that's the thing. There's a lot of references to the quatrains and Nostradamus and stuff. Like, um. Mean, the thing is, at least this is just the kind of thing about Nostradamus. Like some of his stuff happened, or at least some of his stuff happened within the framework of what he was, he was that times mystic Meg. And anyone who understands that reference, I applaud you. Um, but, uh, yeah, obviously you have to be careful about certain quatrains because they've been rewritten. Like, I remember seeing some for, uh, the twin towers when they fell. Um, people had rewritten quatrains to feel like this could have been predicted when quite obviously, it wasn't.
Laura: Um, Internet.
Ryan: Do you like the Internet? I don't know. Yeah, the Internet, it's full of Jeremy's.
Laura: Too many. Jeremy's too many Jeremy's. Mike Leed said, uh, he goes, I was starting to anticipate the millennium. It was obvious it was going to be a big deal, but I didn't know how to treat the subject.
I could have made a science fiction film, but I realized the character of Johnny, a frustrated idealist drifter who's hacked off with the world, would be a very interesting vehicle for millennial preoccupations.
Ryan: Yeah.
Laura: So cute.
Ryan: It's good. Yeah. Ah, it's kind of like. Yeah. I like the idea that these are things that are floating around in these people's heads because something very directly like that, like a science fiction film about y two k and things like that, we have had things like that, uh, that have existed, just don't seem as interesting as some of the things that are depicted.
Laura: Yeah.
Um, there are so many beautiful shots in this film. One of my favorites, probably my favorite is when you have Johnny and Maggie. Like when he finds Maggie after Archie kind of is running away trying to find her. Right.
Ryan: It's probably the signifying shot of the entire.
Laura: It's. It's this amazing tracking shot. And it's so weirdly dynamic because it's just set, um, in front of this really dilapidated background that was a real location. And there's so much happening. But for the first time, one of the very few times where Johnny isn't.
Ryan: Talking, they flood in smoke and stuff. It looks very, um, atmospheric. It's very theatrical in the way it's blocked, as just.
Laura: It's. It's one of the few times where Johnny isn't know. One of the other ones I remember is, uh, after he'd had sex with Sophie.
Ryan: Yeah.
Laura: Just the one time he shuts up. Because most of the time, even if he's not speaking to somebody, he's talking to himself.
Ryan: Those moments speak so much louder than when he's procrastinating and pontificating stuff into the ether that no one's really picking up. It's completely lost on everybody when he starts to talk. But these moments weigh so much heavier on the character development when you see them. That means, I think, uh, that they have a lot more impact when they do come along, because we look at what he's influenced by and things, and he's been likened a lot to Yasujiru ozu and Federico Fellini and stuff. So he's got a very kind of classical filmmaker, um, sensibility that's then transposed to a very northern English, um, setting, which I think is incredibly fascinating. Kind of like a Shane Meadows as well. I think he's another good comparison to that, where it's like classical filmmaking, but it's set in kind of like a modern day, uh, relatable kind of english setting as well, which I think is very, uh, it's just intriguing. It's just a very interesting plug of ideas kind of being forced out there.
Laura: Um, I had read that, um, a biographer, ah, named sheridan morley, described Johnny's character as Alfie in the grips of thatcherite depression.
Ryan: Perfect.
Laura: I like that.
Ryan: I was like.
Laura: A lot of people, like critics as well, have kind of likened his character like a fucked up Michael Caine character.
Ryan: I mean, the most popular review on letterboxed for the film, uh, called this the Joker. But for british folk, I hate that.
Laura: That'S the top also. It's like, if someone is looking to watch that film and they see that as the top gross, I wouldn't want to watch.
Ryan: No, you wouldn't.
Laura: To be fair, I do like the Joker. I want to say I did like that film.
Ryan: We did like the Joker. But the thing is, we like the Joker in the distillation of time that we watched it in the cinema for. I don't think I'll ever really watch it again. I'm not really that fucking interested. And they're doing a sequel and everything.
Laura: But at this, that looks like it'll be interesting.
Ryan: Uh, well, uh, we'll go see it. But what I mean is, it's only going to be interesting for its runtime. I don't see myself ever thinking about it afterwards. But, yeah, I look at that review and I force myself not to say anything or write a comment about it, but it feels like it's also liked by, like, 1800 people who I feel.
Laura: Like, can someone make a better review? Can we make a better one? And then everyone likes it, so that just bumps it down.
Ryan: Just because something's popular, I don't think it feels. It doesn't mean it's correct. I feel like it's a gross misunderstanding of what the film naked is actually trying to be.
Laura: Um, it's like some of the reviews, uh, for Saltburn, one of them was sometimes you've got to bottom your way to the top. That's funny. Bump that up. Hilarious.
Ryan: Yeah, that is funny.
Laura: The joker one. Not. Does not work.
Ryan: The review for naked, it's like they've never seen. I don't agree with. Yeah, it's like you've seen one, and then you've made an idea, you've taken an idea, and you felt like you've ran with it. I think you think it's funnier than it actually is, even though it's kind of grossly incorrect. Yeah, but good for you, I guess.
Laura: I wish that my review of Ferrari would get more likes. You guys should find it on there and, like, it's hilarious.
Ryan: I wish my reviews would get more likes as well, because they tend to be funny.
Laura: They tend to be.
Ryan: They tend to be funny.
Laura: Um, so this film, in terms of accolades, actually did not win the palm door overall, but it won the palm door for best actor and best director.
Ryan: Well, he won the palm door for secrets and lies, I think.
Laura: Okay, makes sense.
Ryan: Like the year, like the time the.
Laura: Film after this, um, what do you think? Are you ready to get down and dirty and naked?
Ryan: With our ratings, I just wanted to double check that secrets and lies actually won the palm door. I'm pretty sure I'm correct.
Laura: Well, while you look, I will give you my ratings. How about that?
Ryan: Secrets and lies won the palm door in 96.
Laura: I was breathing. Okay, good for you. Fast fingers.
So, in terms of visibility and context, the more films we do, I feel like the harder it is for me to come up with numbers. Um. Uh, I had written down a four, and then we watched it again with a commentary, and I'm like, it's a five. And now I'm going to sit on a four and a half just because of how dark it is. But in terms of context and in terms of the film, uh, overall, the film is called naked. So, I mean, that would annoy me.
Ryan: Just, you would hope, on the basis of the title.
Laura: Well, I'll settle on a four and a half just in terms of how dark it is, but it gets screen time and it gets our attention, but it's also just a really truthful and kind of not pure. It is not a pure moment, but it is a truthful moment in terms of his character and his. I don't know, it's not even his relationship with Sophie. He doesn't seem to have relationships with anybody except for Louise, I don't think.
Ryan: Uh. Yeah. I feel like that was the closest he's had to any sort of emotional binding to someone.
Laura: Do you think that her leaving Manchester was a breaking point for him? And he didn't even know because he went to find. Like. Maybe he just started falling apart when she left. Because he didn't have anyone that really knew him?
Ryan: Pretty much, yeah, pretty much. From our understanding of what happened to him within the film. Because everything else would be speculation. Um. Yeah, probably that was like, his breaking point. That was his sudden descent, was that.
Laura: He said nothing to lose because he's lost it all already.
Ryan: Pretty much. Uh. Yeah, pretty much.
Laura: And for the film, four and a half, I was going to give it a five, but then it's not for me, but it's really close. It's not as hard to watch as other films that I've seen. It is watchable because David Thules is so incredible and so dynamic. And really, really takes hold of that character. So he's really very fascinating to watch. And following him around. And the guy who plays Jeremy is very terrifying. Um. But, yeah, four and a half.
Ryan: So I go lower with the scene itself. I give it a four because it is really dark. It's super dark. Um. But it gets a little bit higher just in terms of its context and things. And that. Um. Just with the level of truth and the reality of it. And I like moments like this that come across as relatively quite truthful. There's very few instances where I'll give a five star for the scene in its context and stuff like that. And this kind of falls a little short because of how dark it is. But then if I think about truth and reality, and then you're like, well, how is the light setting? And why is it like this? Why is it like that? It's kind of just like, yeah, maybe that's just the way it is. But then it's also. This is a film. The light can be put in a certain way. So why are we seeing it as dark as it is? Why is it lit this way? I kind of balance it out that way. So, I mean, I think it's good. I think it's a good enough moment. I think it's a very revelatory moment as well. Because certainly it's quite early on in the film. And we're only kind of really starting to understand who the Johnny character is as well. I feel like it's very.
Laura: Think of your word.
Ryan: It's not revealing, but it's candid. So I feel like it's a kind of candid moment in trying to figure out the intricacies of this guy.
Um, as for the film, I gave it four and a half as well. I deeply enjoyed it, but when it starts to get a little bit farcical towards the end, I feel like the tone kind of changes a little bit. And I don't have a massive problem with it. I think it's the minute Sandra turns.
Laura: Up, it's absolutely that.
Ryan: Uh, kind of. I have. I've got nothing wrong with films being relentlessly dark and they just take you to a sad place. I'm perfectly okay with that. I kind of feel like maybe that's what I wanted more out of naked than what we're given at the end of the film. I have no issue with her turning up because suddenly she's kind of like this brighter, kind of comedic, uh, presence that's in the house from all this horrible, dark shit that we have. But then I feel like it also detracts from the fact that a, ah, rape has taken place in this house with these people. And these people are inherently very fucking sad. And then this woman's also entering this house as well. And I'm like. I feel like the resolution I was looking for in the film doesn't come because of the way that that final moment in the film is presented through this leaving the house and walking down the road. I have absolutely zero issue with that. And taking the money. I have zero issue with that. It's just that, um, he took the money. He took the money.
Laura: Oh, I didn't see that.
Ryan: Yeah, he took the money.
Laura: Good for him.
Ryan: So that's the only issue I have with the film. That's why I dock it off a half star, because I'll watch Mike Lee's stuff till the end of fucking time. Like, he has got a stellar fucking filmography.
Laura: That is true.
Ryan: Um, but, yeah, it only gets four and a half just purely because of that. That one moment I just don't think fits particularly well.
Laura: I like it.
Ryan: I think it's fine for me. I want it to feel relentless.
Laura: I think it only gets four and a half from me. Because it could have been shorter because you could have taken out one of, um, the characters. Because Johnny meets so many people. You could have maybe cut out, like one.
Ryan: Yeah.
Laura: Or merged them together or trimmed them.
Ryan: Down a little bit. His odyssey, because certainly Homer's odyssey is also mentioned, um, in the film as well, m because he meets the cafe girl. That's Gina McKee. Um, and she has books, although it's not her books. It seems to be that these people are living in other people's abodes that they've paid. Like, that's what you kind of find. And these are like, lodgers. These people are kind of there, and.
Laura: They'Re like, they're all just roommates. But that makes sense for London and for this age group of people.
Ryan: It does. But, um, it's weird that everybody that we meet who's on that kind of level, because certainly Jenna McKee is also kind of very much a person who's bridled by a heavy amount of loneliness and sadness about her as well.
Laura: Well, that's how he attaches to people he knows, um, who to latch onto, because some people accept his bullshit and some people don't.
Ryan: I do. Like, when he meets Sandra, and Sandra's just like, why do you feel the need to take the piss?
Laura: She's the only person that doesn't take his, like, do you like me? She's like, I don't know you.
Ryan: But the thing is, Sandra is actually very smart. She's a like, johnny pretends to be smart by spouting facts, which is. Well, that's the thing. That's also the visage of the modern man as it is now. This whole idea of gas lighting and people saying they're far more intelligent, like, you don't understand this because of blah, blah, blah. He is very much like the model of the modern man that we see today in this slightly more digital age.
Laura: I really hope that that's not true. And maybe he is just the idea of a shit person and not modern man. Please, m don't say it's.
Ryan: I use the modern man and inverted commas, though, because, uh, you have your, uh, Elon Musk's, your fucking Donald Trump's, okay, your Andrew Tate's.
Laura: I don't want these trash people talked about on our podcast.
Ryan: They are role models for a certain type of person. Yeah, well, so there are people who are perceived to be intelligent, when really they are saying nothing of any substance. That's what I'm saying. And I don't think that's not untrue. Um, they're not role models for the likes of me. They're certainly role models for other people out there.
Laura: Gross. So, um, that being said, um, I want to tell everyone, don't waste your life. I wonder if anyone has ever eaten smoked salmon after having sex. And, um, also a line from the film, and if we've got nothing else I surely don't. You good?
Ryan: I think so, yeah. I was, like, looking at my thing. Um, yeah, no, I think I'm good. I think I said everything that I wanted to say.
Laura: I got my last two things in there.
Ryan: There's so many quotable lines in it as well, but, yeah, we don't need to. I did like it when Sophie's talking about rockets looking like big metal pricks and that. They just also want to go fuck space as well. I was like, all right. Okay. Yeah, that's me.
Laura: Well, coming to you from the Jubilee cafe, which is the only place that had a name in this film.
Ryan: Really? Yeah. Other than, like, London as hell, seemingly. Um, it kind of is. I'm not going to lie. I worked there once. It's not great. It's always on fire. That's the only thing I'll say. It's always on fire. Everyone's always angry.
Laura: Yeah. One of the last times I stayed there, my hostel caught on fire, actually. Wow.
Ryan: Yeah.
Laura: That being said, I have been Laura.
Ryan: I've been Ryan.
Laura: Hope you've enjoyed this dark film and we will.
Ryan: I've been, uh. Yeah, I've been, uh, everyday modern male.