The Canyons (2013)! Welcome to Schrader-thon part three!
Part three of Schrader-thon... Uh... Yay! This film was rather divisive. Sometimes Laura defends films against Ryan's wrath for the sake of defending it, seeing what modicum of value it holds, like it's a frail creature, seeking warmth, comfort and sanctuary. At times, it's an admirable quality. Ryan's here to say; bolt your doors, close your windows, turn the heat up and let Paul Schrader's THE CANYONS perish in the cold.
Laura: Well, hello there. Welcome to on the BiTTE, the podcast that uncovers full frontal male nudity in cinema. My name is Laura, and I am joined by my unfortunately fully closed co host, lion.
Ryan: Oh, sorry. Wait, sorry.
Laura: Oh, my God. What happened to you?
Ryan: I'd fallen asleep because we were watching The Canyons.
Laura: Well, spoiler alert. We are talking about the 2013 erotic thriller drama The Canyons in part three of 2022 schrader Thawn paul Schrader.
Ryan: Yes. The Canyons.
Laura: My boy. My boy. Paul shrades m the third one. We had a huge gap in full frontal films from Cat People in 1982 to 2013 The Canyons. Unless I'm missing something in between. If we did, we'll go back, but I don't think there was one in between. No, it was a bumpy ride in there.
Ryan: Well, that's the thing. What The Canyons makes up for in its inclusion of male full frontal nudity, it does not make up for in terms of quality.
Laura: I really think you need to give it a break. You need to give it a bit of a break. Tiny budget crowdfunded. And I think there's some wonderful moments in this film.
Ryan: Well, I think you've got a lot more to say about it, uh, than I do.
Laura: I, um, am the researcher here, so I'm here to drop the knowledge.
Ryan: Yeah, drop the tidbits. There's a lot of very questionable things here. But I mean, I'm not going to rip away at the story and how poor the acting is. Oh, my God. How bad a first impression the film gives when it's this kind of incredibly brightly lit, uh, bar scene with next to no music in it and probably one of the most lifeless bar scenes I've ever seen in my life. And certainly, yeah, James Dean isn't winning any awards for, uh he's about as convincing as a Jehovah's Witness as far as I'm concerned.
Laura: Let me throw out there the cast list, which we have lindsay Lohan as Tara, james Dean as Christian, nolan Funk as Ryan, and also Gus Van Santis in this movie as a therapist.
Ryan: Yeah, but I mean, he's for funsies. He might as well just not be there.
Laura: He's a very classic looking white man. I just want to point that out. I never knew what he looked like before.
Ryan: Let's put it this way. He's got a lot more to do in that small cameo he has in Jane Silent Bob Strike Back, where he's just sitting in the background. Ben Affleck asks him, uh, Gus, what do you want us to do in the scene? And he basically just counting his money. He's just like, I don't care.
Laura: What was the movie called?
Ryan: It was goodwill hunting. Two hunting season. Yeah. Um, I love that very much.
Laura: Um, yeah, that's great.
Laura: So the synopsis for this film is the discovery of an illicit love affair. Leads two young Angelinos on a violent, sexually charged tour through the dark side of human nature. I guess that's fine. Um, sure. It's kind of a weird thing. I mean, there's some jealousy and some moida.
Ryan: The film not the murder of the.
Laura: Person I was expecting to get murdered, but that's no.
Ryan: Well, by the time that happens, you're just kind of like, whatever. And then, uh, the way the film kind of starts itself out is effectively like this conversational, this melodrama, like this exchange of, I guess, relatively quite sordid and torrid sex games that this couple are into where they effectively bring strangers into the bedroom. And for better or for worse, he's either fucking them or the couple are fucking each other. And the guy is watching. Or there's a whole string of things kind of going around.
Laura: Tons of Christmas kinks involved, pretty much.
Ryan: Yeah, there's plenty of stuff to go on here. So effectively, as it starts and the way I was kind of viewing it was it feels a little bit like a poor man's sex lies and videotaped. I mean, it doesn't hold a candle to it whatsoever, but it kind of feels a little bit like that that disappears very quickly. Um, but overall, um, that is the very crux of what we're presented to with their working relationship is that there's effectively this control element when it comes to, I guess, these sex games that they play with each other.
Laura: Yeah, there's something about this guy that James Dean is playing where, yeah, he brings in other people into their relationship and that's just something that they do. Apparently, he loves her and she has love for him, but then that's just their kink together that I think is more on his side than hers because he seems to be the one that organizes everything through his apps and whatnot. And he's just saying, oh yeah, we're having people over, they're on their way.
Ryan: Well, there's a power struggle and there's obviously meant to be a sense of who's in control. And it's like, I hold all the money because he's a trust fund baby. And he's like, well, I'm going to do this and I'm going to do that.
Laura: And then she thinks that she's the one that's in control. So it definitely goes back and forth. And I think that there's one section of the film in particular where she does try to and successfully, uh, is able to get on top in a way.
Ryan: Yeah. Um, just overall, the whole idea of that just to me, falls relatively quite flat. Just overall, I don't find it interesting.
Laura: Okay, hold on a second. Let's just actually talk about the movie for a little bit before you just poo poo all over the canyons before.
Ryan: I rip it to shred.
Laura: You always do this. This is fine.
Ryan: Why am I not allowed to do this? This is my opinion. No, I don't do it every time. Sometimes we even like, well, sometimes we actually cover good movies for a fucking change. Instead, we're covering these pieces of fucking shit.
Laura: This is Schrader thon.
Ryan: Don't talk about don't try and bring up numbers and budgets. And I am going to budget.
Laura: Because interesting.
Ryan: No, because you know what? People can make good things out of fundamentally nothing.
Laura: Do you want to know how this all came together in the first place?
Ryan: Yeah. You know what? Enlighten m me.
Laura: Okay, so Bret Easton Ellis and Paul Schrader were working with a producer, and they were involved in making a shark thriller called Bait, which I have a synopsis for that movie. And it sounds incredible, and it's going to make you upset because they didn't make this movie, but they made The Canyons instead. So this movie that they were meant to make called Bait, the synopsis is it's basically a revenge movie about a disaffected kid, a sociopath who endures a kind of humiliation on the beach and through a series of events. And in a very cunning way, he ends up on a charter boat with kids who humiliated him. And then when they're in the open water, he pulls the ladder up, doesn't let them back in the boat, and chums the water.
Ryan: Right. Okay.
Laura: That was the movie that they were going to make, the shark thriller. But, uh, the funding got pulled and so they still wanted to work together. So they ended up being like, well, Ellis, write a script and we'll figure it out. We'll do it really short, and we'll do it really cheap.
Ryan: Right. So where's this Ellis guy from?
Laura: Fred Easton Ellis. Everyone should probably know who he is. Best from American Psycho. He wrote American Psycho.
Ryan: Is that just the script or is that the book?
Laura: The book.
Ryan: That's the book.
Laura: I believe he had a hand in the screenwriting.
Ryan: Okay. That's that movie. Yeah.
Laura: Christian Bale.
Ryan: That's a pretty good movie.
Laura: No penises in that movie.
Ryan: Decent movie.
Laura: Less than zero. He also wrote the book. Robert Downey Jr. Is in that film.
Ryan: Yeah. I've not seen that movie.
Laura: It's a good one.
Ryan: Okay.
Laura: It's pretty good. I like his style. I've read a couple of his books.
Ryan: Um, yeah, American Psycho is pretty fucked up. The book.
Laura: Chuck Palinick vibes, I think, in a weird way. Also like Paul Schrader.
Ryan: Yeah. It's another one of those, uh, CIS male movies.
Laura: Hell yeah. Absolutely. But the producer wanted to figure out how they could get this funded because they didn't have any involvement with big money. So he said they should do Kickstarter. So the film raised over $150,000. And I think Schrader, the producer, and Bret Easton Ellis all put in $30,000. Um, also they put up for auction because Kickstarter, you can get stuff. Right. And they can auction off things. Oh, if you donate this much money.
Ryan: Yeah. They have this thing. Yeah. You get separate tiers and, uh, incentives to basically, uh, give more money if you feel like you would like to. There's plenty of very successful Kickstarter projects that have been, uh, over at least the last decade.
Laura: Yeah, well, they auctioned off, or Schrader auctioned off for ten grand. The money clip that Robert De Niro gave him on the set of Taxi Driver.
Ryan: Okay.
Laura: Probably pretty cheap. As though they could have gotten more money for that.
Ryan: Yeah. I'm just super surprised that someone as seasoned as Paul Schrader is literally giving away memories to fund the canyons.
Laura: He hadn't made a film in five years. The last one that he had made was Adam resurrected with Jeff Goldblum. And I think he had been having a hard time. He hadn't done a kind of big budget movie since that Dominion, the prequel to the Exorcist film.
Ryan: Yeah. I guess the Dominion movie has its own story. I don't know if we're going to go into that today, but it's certainly something that's worth certainly worth exploring.
Laura: It's very interesting, but because of the issues that arose from that film, he wasn't getting money to make films anymore. He wasn't getting hired. He wasn't getting these jobs. I think a lot of the things he was doing were foreign films or foreign backed films.
Ryan: At least this was his chance. Yeah.
Ryan: Well, I guess, like, coming into the landscape is changing quite a fair amount.
Laura: This film had a lot more kind of stories behind it, I feel. I feel like people were more interested in what was going on behind the scenes and the making of the film than the film itself. And I do believe that the issues surrounding Lindsay Lohan were part of the reason that the film didn't get a lot of promotion or even any, uh, acclaim whatsoever because of what was going on with Lindsay Lohan at the time. She was in and out of rehab.
Ryan: Yeah. Well, Lindsay Lohan was effectively blacklisted from the industry.
Laura: Yeah. This was also not only was it Paul Schrader's chance to kind of get back on the map, but it was also Lindsay Lohan's chance. She was having such a hard time.
Ryan: Yeah. This was kind of a from the ashes moment because, I mean, I don't know, I saw her in her be fully I mean, I guess I love Lindsay Lohan.
Laura: I'm going to throw that out there. I think she's great. I had her girls.
Ryan: Yeah. I think she had a lot more trap. I think she had a lot more to offer, um, certainly in developing her career than she didn't do herself any favors. Kind of fucking up. Um, you have to look at it wholesale, effectively.
Laura: Well, Schrader likened Lindsay Lohan to Marilyn Monroe. Uh, in terms of being difficult. He said, tardiness, unpredictability, tantrums, absences, neediness, psychodrama. Yes, all of that. But something more like the thing that keeps you watching someone on screen. The thing you can't take your eyes off. That magic, that mystery. The thing that made John Houston say, I wonder why I put myself through all this. And then I go to the dailies.
Ryan: Yeah, but that's.
Laura: He said schrader said that Lindsay Lohan has more raw acting talent than Marilyn Monroe.
Ryan: I mean, that might be true, but in terms of actual star power, I mean, Marilyn Monroe is all the way up there.
Laura: I think there's also just and also.
Ryan: I'll put this out there as well. Anyone who's ever seen John Houston's The Misfits, because that's exactly what he's talking about there. Marilyn Monroe can act.
Laura: Okay.
Ryan: Yeah. She's amazing in that movie.
Laura: I think Lindsay Lohan did an amazing job in this film.
Ryan: You are yet to convince me.
Ryan: I need you to continue on, uh, with this story, behind the actual story.
Laura: There's a point where in the beginning, kind of the pre production, where they're getting the script together and they're doing readings. She canceled on an appointment to go over the script with Schrader and James Dean, and then she rescheduled for the next day, like, oh, so sorry, I'll be there the next day. But she never showed up. And they fired her because they basically held all the cards before production started. Right. So they're saying, We've got someone in Paris. We've got them on the phone ready to take over your role if you fuck this up. And she kept messing it up, so they fired her. She went to the hotel where Schrader was staying and knocked on every single door on his floor to find out where he was. And she is crying and causing a scene. The front desk said, we will call the cops if you want us. No, no, he just he texted her. Lindsay, go away. He just texted her while she cried outside of his door for an hour and a half.
Ryan: Okay.
Laura: They ended up giving her another chance, but as soon as that happened and production started, then she was the one holding all the cards. So then she started acting out. I don't think it was as terrible as they say. She said, uh, it seemed as though she would show up late. Sometimes she would disappear, but it wasn't as bad. They were still weirdly enough on schedule the whole time.
Ryan: Right.
Laura: They never went over their budget. They're very small budget. They were always on time. They were always on track the whole time.
Ryan: Right. Okay.
Laura: Despite all of her issues and her tardiness okay.
Ryan: I'm continuing to listen.
Laura: I don't know. I mean, that's all I have. I'm sure I have more, but I just think it was interesting. I think it's fun.
Ryan: Okay.
Laura: It's fun.
Ryan: The story behind none of that stuff translates to making it better. This is a bad movie with a handful of interesting little bits in it.
Laura: Yeah, maybe.
Ryan: And I mean, a tiny hand.
Laura: I mean, this isn't going to blow anyone's mind.
Ryan: No more than likely.
Laura: It's not going to give it a little bit more credit for the pressure and the budget and the things that they were able to do with that small amount of money.
Ryan: Yeah, but I think that's the story of every film. There is pressure, there is problems, there's issues. Sometimes you only have half an hour to shoot a scene that's maybe like 15 pages long. That happened to David Fincher on seven for that whole end sequence when, uh, they're out near, uh, the telephone pylons magic hour. Yeah, they had to get it in magic hour. And they only had so much he had to start trimming shots because all of the things that he wanted to do, he couldn't do. And that's remarkably one of the best scenes, probably the best scene of that movie. So there are things that can come out of what effectively could become a complete disaster. I think that's the main thing is like this film, because we've been watching schrader stuff, we've been doing that, but at the same time, you watch this and you go, m, this is different.
Laura: Than any of the films that he's done before. And I think that that in and of itself, warrants a little bit of leniency. I think it deserves a little bit of leniency and care.
Ryan: That's fine. I think you're more than able to defend it. Um, but the thing is, I feel like there's some very good reasons as to why this film just gets ripped apart. Because, look, end of the day filmmaking in itself can be a very unrewarding process. You can put everything into it, and then if what you make at the end of it can be summed up as just being a big pile of steaming shite, that's unfortunate. That's just the way it goes. That's how the pendulum swings sometimes.
Laura: Okay.
Ryan: Let'S just get into the meat and bones of it. What's the tagline of this movie?
Laura: The tagline is and uh, it doesn't make any sense to me because I'm not from California, but it's not the Hills.
Ryan: Well, it's not the Hollywood Hills.
Laura: Yeah, it's the canyons.
Ryan: It's the canyons. So it's basically like, geographically this isn't the Hollywood Hills, this is the of like there's a lot of stuff at the beginning of the movie where basically it's, um I don't know where it would be, but it's like all the disused buildings, all the abandoned buildings, abandoned cinemas and things. Like, basically, I guess, all of the stuff that would make La. Feel like classic La. That's all completely dead and disused and not used anymore. And this is effectively a film about the film industry. It's not a very good film about the film industry, but it does cover, I guess, this kind of middle tier, low tier kind of budget movies that are made and kind of funded by this guy who's just a millionaire. Um, and it's the jucking, it's the jiving. I'm working in a coffee shop, I'm doing bar shifts. I'm also an actor to a lot of degrees. It's incredibly cliche and it feels a little bit certainly the characters themselves feels a little bit too dimensional. I will say Lindsay Lohan does better than most.
Laura: Yes, she does.
Ryan: All the rest of them, though, I mean, even James Dean, I was just kind of like, all right, here we go. Let's see what this guy does.
Laura: Yeah, there's moments where he is quite imposing and he has a very scary look about him.
Ryan: Yeah.
Laura: But then there's other times where it's not great. That opening scene that you were talking about where it's kind of devoid of music, it's quite quiet, and they're all just sitting around. There's weird close up shots of their face while they're talking. And you're trying to figure out who these characters are. Yeah, they wanted to reshoot that. But then they knew that once they wrapped, they couldn't get Lindsay Lohan back. It was just going to be, uh, totally impossible. So they just tried to make it work with what they had. They didn't like her makeup. They thought it was a weird scene, wasn't going well together. It is the only scene that I feel like throughout the film doesn't work.
Ryan: It doesn't work at all. No, it doesn't work at all.
Laura: And that's your that's the first scene that they shot of the whole thing.
Ryan: Fucking feels and looks like it.
Laura: No, I agree. Because people don't look like they know each other at all.
Ryan: This is a horrible and this is going to be like a damning indictment. But you remember that talking cat movie that we watched?
Laura: Yeah.
Ryan: It looks like that movie.
Laura: The sound was slightly better in this film.
Ryan: Sound is slightly better in this film. Cat movie. This is a film that looks incredibly underwhelming. There are some things about it that do get better, but, uh, it just immediately looks underwhelming the minute it starts.
Laura: Okay. Now, moving on to other parts of the film. You're going to keep doing this. I know you are.
Ryan: And you know exactly what I'm going to be.
Laura: I'm going to say something interesting and go, well, you know, Laura, it looked a little dull.
Ryan: No, it's okay. Actually, I wrote something down.
Laura: Oh, did?
Ryan: Yeah.
Laura: What was it?
Ryan: So there's a lot of, like they blow out the highlights. They do a lot of, like, Robbie Richardson stuff where they blow out the highlights. So the whites are all really bright. And in some cases, like, that works really well. Like, in I don't know, JFK. Right. It works really well. And it looks quite nice. But for the most part, um, it just feels like visually deprived and unadventurous.
Laura: The visuals I was less concerned with and more concerned about the story.
Ryan: Yeah. For something that's made by one who's effectively, like pulse radar, celebrated screenwriter, film critic.
Laura: Well, he didn't write this.
Ryan: Doesn't matter. He still has a hand in trying to craft this story. And then obviously, Ellis, who's a fucking novelist, who's made M some of the most celebrated modern books of all time. And this is what they come out with.
Laura: Yeah.
Ryan: You know what I mean? You can't blame the actors in this. Even though it does feel like I was going to say this, but I do like the room. But, uh, I kept on being reminded of amateur actors. Just amateur hour, man. Amateur hour. And the only reason that fucking James Dean guy is in this movie is because he can get his dick out. And he doesn't fucking ask any. Like that's the only reason he's here.
Laura: Yeah, he was very professional. Um, Bret Easton Ellis was the one who was pushing James Dean. Schrader didn't want him. He thought that he wouldn't be able to get out of his porn mind and actually do some real acting. But it took a few times and it took some screen tests. And then they thought, okay, this might work. And I guess, uh, Lohan and James Dean had a mild amount of guess.
Ryan: So. I guess so.
Laura: And he was a good boy on set. I mean, he was always on time.
Ryan: That's all I heard about this movie. There are some schrader antics that did happen on the set. Like trying to obviously convince Lohan that everything was going to be okay. Certainly when they shoot that kind of more prominent sex scene near the talk.
Laura: I want to talk about that. One of the first dick scenes happen really early on in the film. There's two of them. The first one is 13 minutes and 36 seconds. And it's right after that awkward dinner at the bar or whatever that they have. And James Dean invites a dude over. And I assume he was inviting him over just to watch him and Lindsay Lohan have sex.
Ryan: It looks that way. I mean, as it kind of transpires. That's exactly what he's there to, um mean. I don't know why you seem to think like that first scene is the most awkward because the awkwardness just continues.
Laura: I think they get more comfortable as time goes on. But that first scene is just the weirdest one. This one's fine. Uh, I'm not going to cut every single scene and say this one's awkward. This one's not awkward. This one was fine.
Ryan: I mean, this guy, this random dude just fucking shows up.
Laura: Yeah. And they're like, oh, have the tequila shot. Those guys in that house have the same cups that we have. They're from Ikea.
Ryan: Yeah, that's obviously.
Laura: I mean, what do you call them? Tumblers?
Ryan: I don't know.
Laura: Cups.
Ryan: Those are whiskey glasses. Yeah, they're whiskey glasses.
Laura: They have our cups.
Ryan: Yeah, they have our cups. Didn't we feel privileged? But I mean, we, uh fancy. Yeah, of course we were. It's like, wow, look at that guy drinking from the same cup that we own.
Laura: Wow. It's uh, like we're in the movies.
Ryan: Wow. I couldn't be like, yeah, of course I would feel oh, yeah. I don't know.
Laura: Well, this guy comes over and James Dean tells him to get comfortable. So this guy just takes his pants off.
Ryan: Well, I guess that's what he was meaning.
Laura: I know. It's just kind of funny. I mean, you know why he's there? He was invited over for a very specific reason.
Ryan: Well, luckily at this point, um, james Dean leaves his pants on for the most part. We never have to see his shit.
Laura: At least for a little another hour, almost.
Ryan: Yeah, pretty much. But, uh, Lohan's almost completely like at this guess. I guess if you were ever curious as to what Lindsay Lohan did look like naked, I mean, this is the movie effectively.
Laura: Oh yeah.
Ryan: Like this is ah, like everything is beard.
Laura: All she's naked for topless for decent amount of this film.
Ryan: Yeah. Pretty, um, mean. Does it add anything to it? I don't know. Contextually it's there.
Laura: Uh, no, it's just one of those things where I can appreciate people just being people. You being naked for a certain amount of time in the day and then you clothe for a certain amount of time in the day. And I can appreciate that being in a film.
Ryan: Yeah. Uh, you're naked when you're meant to.
Laura: Be and you're clothes when you're not.
Ryan: Well, the thing that I didn't really appreciate is that the guy gets comfortable. So he takes his clothes off and then he's immediately, completely naked. And this is obviously when we see his bits and bobs, we do full wide shot. We see everything a couple of times.
Laura: I think it cuts back and forth to Lohan and Dean on the couch making out and then this guy jerking off. Well, we don't see him masturbating, but apparently there's a moment that was cut out of the film of him m just unsimulated, obviously masturbating on a leather chair.
Ryan: Yeah. That's the thing.
Laura: Like bare ass.
Ryan: Yeah.
Laura: Gross.
Ryan: If you're getting excited, you're probably going to get a little bit sweaty. So that chair is going to get a little bit gross.
Laura: You know what I couldn't help think about is that they rented this location from somebody for $10,000 for the shoot. And I was just thinking about all those bare butts bare butts and balls all over their leather furniture.
Ryan: It might have been a pornhouse. Laura.
Laura: It wasn't a pornhouse.
Ryan: Was it all pornhouse?
Laura: Um, it was not. And I just think about all the things they needed to wipe down.
Ryan: I mean, there's probably a hope they.
Laura: Spent $5,000 cleaning it.
Ryan: There was probably a Febreze budget. I mean, there would probably have to be. Yeah. Um, but in the uncensored cut, there.
Laura: Is that scene wow. That they took out, which streaming on Showtime right now.
Ryan: They removed some of the magic they did. Yeah.
Laura: You see everything.
Ryan: Yeah. No, everything. You can see him jacking off like he's just fucking going for it. And then obviously then good for him. And then yeah. Like James Dean's going diving on fucking Lindsay Lohan and it's all kicking off.
Laura: And then really going on.
Ryan: Thankfully it cuts away. And uh, that's just a regular yeah. Yeah.
Ryan: I mean, I'm really struggling to figure out what the fuck really happens in this movie and what the fuck it's all about.
Laura: Oh, my. Triangle here between Lohan, the actor Ryan and James Dean. James Dean is getting jealous.
Ryan: Here's my note.
Laura: M. She has a past relationship with this other man.
Ryan: Yeah, well, his fucking character arc is, uh, astounding who? Uh, James dean.
Laura: Okay.
Ryan: Um, uh, that was sarcasm. But basically I wrote down, I said everyone's cheating on everyone. Basically everyone bothered me because they have.
Laura: This type of relationship where it is an open relationship. But in classic man fashion, it's only open for the man and not for the woman. Because the woman is his property. Uh, so she can't be seeing somebody else.
Ryan: Yeah.
Laura: Uh, it's crap.
Ryan: But she is seeing somebody else.
Laura: She is seeing somebody else. But so is he. So is James Dean.
Ryan: He's seen a guy who's unfortunately called Ryan.
Laura: Yeah.
Ryan: If you wanted to do a drinking game to this, just have a drink every time they say Ryan. It is, um, often. And it happens every so often. Every so ryan yes. And make sure that drink that you're drinking is pure methanol because you want to go blind. But the thing is, I'm just trying to figure, you know what, there's the only bit that I remember that I was just like, what the fuck's going on here? Text TV.
Laura: Yeah.
Ryan: Uh, fuck is text TV.
Laura: And I think you think about it now. So this is 2013 and you think about how often in films now you have text bubbles popping up on the screen to show us what our characters are saying on their phone.
Ryan: Well, I remember seeing back then they.
Laura: Had to figure out another way, I suppose.
Ryan: Well, I remember watching I try and remember the vimeo, the guy who did like film analysis and stuff on vimeo. I can't remember his name. But basically because of the advent of cell phones and because of their prevalent use and everything, it's changed the landscape of film narratives specifically for horror movies and stuff like that. That's why I think Scream is the very last movie which works just because there's not really any cell phones in it. That's the thing. And it's very much predicated upon the use of the telephone because you can't.
Laura: Phone line on a cell phone, pretty much.
Ryan: And I remember seeing I've seen a bunch of films that just do not hit the mark, where it's basically like, well, we just have to kill the internet. And then that's that plot point sorted. And it never really works.
Laura: Right.
Ryan: And I guess the issue my phone died pretty much. It's like, oh no, the routers no, I'm not getting you the routers restarting. Like no one can help. Me. Um, what they were trying to explain was like, look, now storytellers are having an issue where it's like, how the fuck do I show this stuff on a phone?
Laura: Do you remember in the first scream and the phone lines are cut and then she runs over to her computer and then types in 911 to get the cops on the Internet?
Ryan: Wow, that's pretty clever.
Laura: Yeah.
Ryan: This dies dialogue back then, though.
Laura: Think it was boyfriend's climbing in the window. Okay, sorry. Go on.
Ryan: But basically there's this issue of just like, how the fuck do you show what's on a cell phone without just effectively just shooting the front of a cell phone? Which is, like, easily the most uncimatic thing ever. And there's obviously people that are filmmakers that have found a way of just like, well, we'll just have little text bubble things like popping out of the phone, which also kind of work and for the most part don't really work because at the end of the day, it's a visual medium. You don't want to be sitting there just reading text messages going, like popping off on one another between two characters because it's just not very interesting.
Laura: Right?
Ryan: And I guess what they try to do in the Canyons is why show off the phone? Or do anything in after effects. Just use this thing called text TV where the text just show up on the TV.
Laura: Yeah. But then obviously you're still typing it into your phone and looking at your phone and then looking back, looking at the TV.
Ryan: Um, it was eye opening.
Laura: It was odd. And I loved it.
Ryan: This is also one of the moments in the movie I genuinely thought was all right because it was dumb.
Laura: And just thinking about how these two people are living together in a house and she's upstairs in an oversized shirt playing on her phone, looking at text TV. And then she goes to tell her boyfriend that she's leaving and he's just laying on the couch just downstairs. They're just in different rooms, not talking to each other. The house is silent. They're just chilling.
Ryan: I mean, to put some people that's life. I mean, he was weird. He was looking at his iPad or at least like what he was acting doing. He was like a fucking iPad. But he was like this. And his eyes are scanning up and down really fast. Very strange. I don't think James Dean's a very good physical actor. And again, there's more silly shit that happens precedes all this as well. And it's like the guy checks her phone and then her phone, that whole thing with the phone that happens where it's like, I don't know if this is my phone.
Laura: I love that. He takes her phone and she goes away. And while she's away, James Dean has his hacker friend come over to hack her phone. Fucking guy hack her Facebook to also hack her friend old lover Ryan's Facebook to see if they're friends on Facebook.
Ryan: Yeah, because I'm wondering if I could do this. I mean, has anyone hammered down on the down key for whatever reason? And then you're looking at page to go. You're looking at the screen and you're like, it's not moving.
Laura: This guy is a genuine hacker, though.
Ryan: And it's hacking away. Let's say like 20 seconds is all you hear. And he's like, no, wait, the thing has moved. It's like, no, that's the same picture we've been staying at for the last.
Laura: Yeah, the page hasn't moved. And then he finally looks up and realizes, oh, yeah, this is what I was looking for. It's a picture of my girlfriend with this guy.
Ryan: Yeah, they'd already had a relationship together as well.
Laura: Why would it matter if they were on Facebook?
Ryan: Exactly.
Laura: Yeah. And then he goes, hey, I think I figured out those deleted texts you wanted me to see.
Ryan: Oh, uh, god.
Laura: And then the text pop up. I swear I thought it was going to go on textv. And it just says, I think he knows about us.
Ryan: Love it.
Laura: And then James Dean says to the hacker friend, he goes, how quickly can you hack into his bank account? Yeah, which comes to nothing.
Ryan: It does come to nothing. It basically is just like Ryan has no money. At one point in the movie, I.
Laura: Barely could hack into this Facebook account. What do you think I'm going to hack into a bank?
Ryan: Fuck you, Christian. You've taken away my money. I'm angry. And it's like, what the fuck?
Laura: Wait a minute. Hold on a second. I'm just realizing something.
Ryan: What?
Laura: When Ryan comes out of that Amoeba record store and he goes to the uh huh. He doesn't have any money. Maybe it did come to something. I just thought it was because he was poor. Maybe he hacked him.
Ryan: Are you kidding me on? Are you honestly not able to put two and two together?
Laura: Did you remember that?
Ryan: That's exactly that was one of the few things in the film I understood 2 seconds ago.
Laura: I said it came to nothing. And then you agreed with me.
Ryan: No, I think I'm just a little bit delirious because we both sat down and watched the canyon just napped through the canyon. No, we've got his hacker friend to fucking wipe his bank account. And then he's like, uh of the.
Laura: $23.98 he had in his bank account already pouring out a poor man.
Ryan: It's like, fuck, I can't afford my CDs. It's like, what the like, who cares? Who cares? What was the whole point of that? Uh, I would be very sad if.
Laura: I went to the store and I couldn't buy my CDs. Tragic.
Ryan: It's all quite convoluted and ah, messy. Well, um, where the hell are we?
Laura: Penis scene part two, which is the craziest part of this movie.
Ryan: The group sex.
Laura: The group sex at, uh, 1 hour, five minutes and 26 seconds. This was in the contract for the actors that there would be a four way sex scene. This was a non negotiable scene.
Ryan: And that's the thing. Even like it looks like shit as well.
Laura: The lights that they used look like they came out of a 7th grader's bedroom.
Ryan: It's so lasers. And this isn't the worst part.
Laura: Lasers. You're not going to get a boner. You're going to have an epileptic fit.
Ryan: If only if you're lucky. If you're lucky. Well, here's the thing. Up to this point, there's all this collusion. And there's this other girl called Cynthia. Everyone's spreading rumors about everybody else. And for whatever fucking reason, it's about this alien movie that they're fucking making. The producer on that movie is also gay. Someone's going to suck who's dick. And it's all this nonsense, right? All this crazy espionage. Fucking hell, yeah. Jack Ryan shows up and then everything's fine. But then there's this four way sex scene thing. And they're all know Lohan and Dean are arguing because it's like, who's talking to who? I was speaking to this person. Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And they're like, uh, yeah, these people are going to come over because it's going to be another one of those sex game things. And they're like, well, I can cancel it if you want. And it's like, no, just invite them over.
Laura: And it's like, okay, come to meet me upstairs.
Ryan: I'll be upstairs. And then, well, I think they want to use the pool first. It's like, I don't give a fuck. It's like, all right. Okay.
Laura: So she's chilling upstairs in her undies. These guys come out of the pool, but they walk. I mean, obviously they're skinny dipping. Why not? It's a sex party, right? And yeah, James Dean and this other guy. Don't think you see the other guy naked, but you 100% see James Dean naked.
Ryan: Well, that other guy, as far as I'm aware, no idea who he is. He's just referred to as the hot guy. Um, this is the only film he's ever been in.
Laura: They are porn actors, those two.
Ryan: Well, yeah, they definitely well, the lady had some credits that I saw the guy.
Laura: Sexy credits?
Ryan: No idea. Well, the thing is if you go on Letterboxd and you look at like James Dean's credits and also this lady, whatever her fucking name is, um, Letterboxd does that thing where it shows you the posters in like a square grid. And obviously the ones for the porn, they're all pixelated out. So you know they're porn. That's the same way I found out that the original director of Evil ah, Dead Trap, which funnily enough, there's a HD 4K transfer now available on Amazon. So if you like your horrible video, nasty Horrors, that's definitely on there and is definitely worth a watch. He also did like a bunch of porno before he did movies like that because they're all fucking sorted. And if you've ever seen any of that stuff, it's all kind of just like it's gross. Uh, but yeah. No, that's how you figure out if they've been in porn is that Letterboxd will not show you the covers to those.
Laura: Well, they're posters, films. Good for them.
Ryan: Yay for cinema.
Laura: But anyway, yeah, this scene is really interesting because you are back kind of entwined in this power struggle between James Dean Christian and Lindsay Lohan. Tara.
Ryan: Tara, yeah.
Laura: Uh, and she had just come from his ex girlfriend's house saying, you know, I know how to handle him. Looks like you didn't have him under control. I have him under control. Collusion she's obviously coming into this situation. He thinks that he has the upper hand by bringing these people in to have sex with them. And she's thinking, absolutely not. So while this whole thing is happening, she is trying to kind of control the whole situation. Right. So we got the four of them in bed. There's lasers going off. Everyone's getting sexy.
Ryan: He's fucking laser.
Laura: What does he say to them? He's like, I want my girls to kiss. Come on. I want to see my girls kiss.
Ryan: Yeah.
Laura: Weird, gross stuff.
Ryan: Yeah. Because it's also like, for whatever reason, during the scene, they weren't able to get them to say the lines or to record the lines the way they wanted them to. So you never see anyone's lip move. And it's painfully obvious that they've recorded the lines afterwards. Yes. Um, and I'm assuming there's a technical reason for that, for why that came to be. And you could say it's a stylistic choice. It's Paul Schrader. Just live with it. It's like right, okay.
Laura: Well, during this scene yeah.
Ryan: All the dick stuff, basically, it happens up to the point where they start this four way sex scene.
Laura: Right.
Ryan: Let's be clear. Like, they're just walking up and he's.
Laura: Like yeah, they walk up the stairs into the four way situation that I was describing.
Ryan: Yeah.
Laura: So, uh, again, every penis shot in this movie is full on, wide shot, long takes, wieners.
Ryan: Yeah, pretty much.
Laura: So you are seeing, you know, everyone knows James Dean as a porn actor for having, um, supposedly a nice charismatic attitude and a gigantic wiener. You know what's weird? I was reading an article where I think it was one of the writers for Vanity Fair said that James Dean came up to her while they were kind of doing the scene. And he goes, it's not really that big.
Ryan: Okay. Just so I mean, you can see.
Laura: Know, it has heft I mean, to.
Ryan: Be fair, who really gives a fuck? It's attached, huh?
Laura: I don't typically talk about way penises look or, uh, it is what it is. And I'm happy that they're the same.
Ryan: Thing with the, you know, the movie, you know? But he seems like a pretty good Simon Rex.
Laura: Yeah.
Ryan: But anyway, they do this four way sex scene. And then Lindsay Lohan takes control.
Laura: Yes, she does. She has him do some sexy stuff.
Ryan: Yeah.
Laura: He doesn't like.
Ryan: Going to I've got some things to say about that.
Ryan: Uh, this is when I fucking lost the plot. Uh, what do you so would you.
Laura: Want me to say what happens in what?
Ryan: What do you mean?
Laura: Uh, in this four way scene how.
Ryan: Lindsay Lehan forces, uh, the other dude to kiss James Dean, and they start making out properly and then forces the other dude to fucking suck his dick.
Laura: Yeah. She makes this guy go down on her boyfriend.
Ryan: Yeah.
Laura: He's not happy.
Ryan: Well, I guess here's the thing with that scene is that scene can go any which way. Could end up with the women in a very compromised situation with these two other two other dudes in the room. It ends up turning into, uh, a nightmare scenario or any of those sorts of things where it just ends up going a little bit too far. I can understand what she's trying to do. And she's trying to just kind of play mind games with this cunt at the same time. It looks really bad. You're not really 100% sure if that's what's happening. Because what you're hearing is just the dialogue that's been overlaid on the phone.
Laura: You know, what's happening?
Ryan: And you're kind of just like, right, okay, well, here it is. And then all right, well, he's sucking his deck. The thing that kind of pissed me off and this is the thing that's like that's the deck scene, by the way. There you go. That's the second deck scene. And thankfully the last one.
Ryan: But, uh, the thing that really fucking pissed me off is the scene with Gus Van Sant, who plays the therapist. He doesn't need to be there. Gus doesn't need to be there. He doesn't need to be associated with this whatsoever. Right. Uh, but he's talking to James Dean. And James Dean goes on this fucking rant about the sex scene that just happened where he's like, I felt objectified. He didn't feel like he was in control. Basically, he is referring to us. All of the stuff that we already figured out from watching the fucking thing. Anyway, it's all exposition at this point. And he's just fucking battering on saying that, seeing he's objectified. And I'm like, for fuck's sake, cut this out. Should have cut the first scene. Should cut this scene out as well. I'm like, I'm really sorry you felt objectified.
Laura: Yeah. I'm not sure exactly why that scene is there. They kept talking about his therapist and then I don't know if it was necessary to show your therapist.
Ryan: No, well, m the scene itself doesn't bring anything to the know. It's just another one of those quite overly bright scenes where you're just like, oh. And then it's like, oh, there's Gus Van Sant.
Laura: It was nice to see a different location.
Ryan: It was nice to see a different yeah, I mean, I guess, um here's the thing. As the film progresses, the cinematography gets better. I don't know why I've seen that. That's something I kind of realized. I was just like, that looks a little bit oh, there's a nice use of color there. Whatever.
Laura: So Lindsay Lohan was apparently being difficult during this four way scene. And obviously, as I was saying, it was in her contract. She has to do it. So Schrader's yelling at her, it's in your contract. You have to do this. She's hiding in a closet with a friend of hers, and they're just drinking. And she was in there for an hour. And Schrader's freaking out. Then she comes, uh, out of the room. She's laying on the bed. She's just laying there and won't take her robe off. And Schrader's losing his mind. So he's trying to figure out what to do. The light's about to come up because they were filming at night and she's taken the piss. And so he decides that he's going to take all of his clothes off because maybe that'll make her feel comfortable. So he just goes, hey, Linz. She looks over and he's dropped Trow. And she's like laughing, going, oh, my god, Paul. And she's like, uh, why not? Takes off all of her clothes. She wanted everyone to take off all their clothes, but then they just had more of the crew leave to not have to deal with this situation.
Ryan: Yeah. I don't think at any point I'd be like, yeah, uh, I'll satiate her fucking desires. This drama queen.
Laura: Well, they ended up being able to do that scene in 114 minutes take. And there was that moment that was actually in that scene, which is very alarming to watch. And they actually closed the movie with a similar thing where she just stares straight down into the barrel of the camera and smiles.
Ryan: Yeah, that was actually one of my favorite parts of the movie. But then when you think about the nature of how, I guess, Schrader was able to get that scene in the can, that's her just staring down, giving him a big fuck you probably for.
Laura: The most winky, winky, wink.
Ryan: Yeah. So she's definitely playing up she's, uh, playing up to the camera a fair amount with that that sort of thing. And yeah, you're right. They reflect the same thing directly at the end. It's not as effective. It's kind of just like but, uh yeah, at least that one moment, I was like, that's all right. Actually, that's actually pretty decent. That was effective. Whether it was intentional or not, I don't know.
Laura: Yeah, he could have cut it out, but he didn't. And I think that it is pretty cool.
Ryan: No, well, he needed to get some flourishes in there because this film is dangerously lacking. Yeah. Yeah.
Laura: There's this other scene that I really, really like. And it is the last scene that I actually really like, Lindsay Lohan finds out that James Dean had her phone and she starts to panic, and he freaks out because he knows that she's been sleeping with this other guy, right? After all this, his espionage and his hacker friend going through her phone and her Facebook, and he starts screaming at her and throws her into a wall and then throws her into that side table. She is, like, sobbing. It is super scary.
Ryan: It felt a little bit too real, personally. Felt like it was kind of grounded a little bit more in reality than I would have appreciated, personally filmed towards.
Laura: The end of the whole shoot. And so I'm sure that everyone was really annoyed with her, uh, in a.
Ryan: Way, um, probably not to the point where you'd want to force physical harm on her.
Laura: So what was interesting about this scene is that apparently during rehearsals, just any typical rehearsal, lohan wanted to give it everything. So she wanted it to be as good as she could get it, give it her all. But then when they were trying to rehearse this particular scene, james Dean was doing it at, like, a half speed. And so Schrader was kind of trying to coach him, oh, this is how I want it. And he wasn't really getting it. So Schrader takes Lohan and just, like, slams her on the ground. And Lindsay gets up and she goes, that was great. That was perfect. Do you want to do it again? And he's like, no, I think that's okay. But they ended up being able to really kind of get it when they filmed it, perhaps due to Schrader slamming her on the ground. And James Dean going, okay, well, I can handle her a little bit rougher than I was expecting to.
Ryan: Right.
Laura: Because she was fine with it. And there's this weird thing where after they actually filmed it and someone came up to her and complimented her on the scene, and she goes, Well, I've got a lot of experience with that from my dad. Isn't that sad? She's got a bad dad? Yeah, it is tragic.
Ryan: Yeah. Well, yeah, there's a lot of stuff being channeled through this film.
Laura: Oh, yeah.
Ryan: None of it for the better.
Laura: No.
Ryan: Yeah, perhaps not. It's like, when does art go a bit too far?
Ryan: Canyons well, the movie does end. I mean, it's only an hour and a half long. It feels so long.
Laura: It does. Same thing.
Ryan: Yeah. It's so boring. But, uh yeah, there's a murder. We won't spoil that. We can just kind of move on to our little last bits and bobs. There's not much to kind of add to the movie because I don't want to talk.
Laura: I mean, you spent an hour listening to this. I'm sure you have an extra 30 minutes of your life just pop in and watch this movie.
Ryan: Yeah, 30 minutes of your life that you'll never get back and you can just do that.
Laura: So, um, apparently everyone was arguing about the final cut of the film. And Schrader went and showed steven soderbergh the rough cut. And Soderberg.
Ryan: Yeah.
Laura: She like that. You're going to like this.
Ryan: Why the fuck is he showing it to Soderberg?
Laura: I don't know.
Ryan: Maybe they're best of all people. I mean, were they arguing so hard about the movie? We're just like, Paul, where's all the good bits?
Laura: Yeah. Then Soderberg, uh, has the rough cut and says to Schrader that he'll cut it. He'll recut the movie for him in three days. And then Schrader said no. And then he told the, um, new York Times. He goes, the idea of 72 hours is a joke. It would take him 72 hours to look at the footage. And you know what Soderbergh would do if another director offered to cut his film? And he put up his two middle fingers and he's like, that's what Soderbergh would do. Basically. Fuck you. You're going to cut my film. And so he was pissed. He was pissed. That soderberg?
Ryan: Why was Soderberg offering to cut the film? Did he have any sort of obligation to do that for him?
Laura: No, he had no obligation to do that. I think he just as a friend, was showing him the cut of the film. And he was having trouble editing it and getting that final cut. The producer, Ellis and Schrader were all arguing about mean.
Ryan: It seems like it's a very difficult film to put together. The end result's incredibly messy. And the thing is with Soderbergh is that he can shoot and he can fucking edit. And he can just get things done really fast. And he's made plenty of films just like this one. And they look infinitely m more interesting. But in terms of their content and stuff, I'd say like stuff like The Girlfriend Experience. And, uh, he did a film called Full Frontal. Like a lot of these the low end films that he makes. Because he makes a lot of kind of very low budget movies as well. On top of the other he's fucking ocean movies, all that sort of crap. Um, he can fire them out really fast. So that doesn't surprise me. And if he's only being a mean, to be honest, I'd be like, just fucking take it. He wouldn't even use soderberg Wouldn't even use his real name anyway. Would have been a yeah, it would have been like his father's name and, uh, his mother's maiden name.
Laura: I want to see the Soderbergh cut. I'd be interested to see what that would look like.
Ryan: No, I don't want to see the Soderberg. No.
Laura: You just don't want to watch this movie again?
Ryan: No, I don't want to see the movie again. Uh, Soderberg should have shot it. It would have looked so much better. Uh, he probably would have done it for free.
Laura: We haven't really said a lot about James Dean, but I just want to say towards the end of this episode that James Dean's got problems and no one's going to see him work again. Probably because of all of the sexual misconduct and rape allegations from 2015 to probably still happening now.
Ryan: Okay.
Laura: Yeah. I think you knew about that, right?
Ryan: I mean, I've been seeing a lot. I don't tend like uh, yeah. No, because it is fucking really terrible. A whole industry in general. I mean, it's all fucked up.
Laura: So Ryan, what is your rating for this is your what is your rating for the penis scenes?
Ryan: Four.
Laura: Okay. Um wow. There we go. I'm going to give this movie three. I think it is watchable. I think Lindsay Lohan is really fun to watch because you get to actually see her doing an adult role. I don't mean adult in the sexy way, but it's also that. But I mean, this film's not sexy. It's not what I mean. But you kind of get to see her spread her wings a little bit. And you do see a lot of her trauma kind of pushing through. And I'm a big Lindsay Lohan fan. I'm a they call her Lilo Malilo fan.
Ryan: Okay.
Laura: I like her. Um, yeah, I think it's watchable. I don't think it's a terrible way to spend 90 minutes. You probably won't watch it again. Unfortunately. I've watched it twice this year. But that's okay. That's fine. I'll give it three for the dick scenes. Five stars, fully visible. You get a sense, uh, of the male nudity in this film. And there's equal male nudity. Almost equal male nudity, which is cool.
Ryan: Yeah. I would say that contextually and obviously, visibility wise, it's all kind of there.
Laura: Yeah.
Ryan: Overall, the whole feeling of the movie. And I guess this is a very deliberate thing. It's very scummy.
Laura: Oh, yeah.
Ryan: And it's very kind of dirty.
Laura: How often do you see an La film, though, that's not gross of your.
Ryan: Um I mean, you can have your Glitz and Glam. Ah.
Laura: I think a lot of times when I don't know.
Ryan: Last action hero.
Laura: Yeah. That movie's awesome.
Ryan: Yeah. Uh, La looks amazing in that movie. Because it's the movie inside the movie, obviously. Yeah. Well, um, the thing is well, no, that's when La looks amazing in that movie. And then they come to New York.
Laura: Oh, yeah. And he's like, New York in the.
Ryan: Just shot a man.
Laura: Nobody cares.
Ryan: Yeah. And it's like, okay, that's fine.
Laura: That movie gets not enough credit.
Ryan: Take his shoes. Rather watch that movie. Honestly. I mean, that film is fucking that's a fucking classic in comparison.
Laura: Ryan, would you recommend this movie?
Ryan: No. It's a complete waste of your time.
Laura: Okay. I would recommend it. I mean, that's fine for the know. Watch it. Why not? What else are you doing?
Ryan: Um, especially if you're listening to this.
Laura: Podcast you probably already watched it.
Ryan: Good for mean. Yeah. Good for you. Well done. You're in the same shitty boat that we're in right now.
Laura: This is a lovely boat, and it's a float. And I'm enjoying m it.
Ryan: Yeah, it's a boat that's also occupied by James Dean and Lindsay Lohan.
Laura: Oh, uh, yeah.
Ryan: That's mean. Like, it's not a fun like it was fun? No, not a fun movie. No. I'd rather it was like that film Bait that they wanted to make. I'm about to throw some chum in the water and jump in.
Laura: Shark movie so bad.
Ryan: Yeah.
Laura: Awesome.
Ryan: Yeah. Well, I'd rather do that than do that. I think that film sounds fucking interesting. And I have no idea how they got to this. Haven't got a clue.
Laura: I mean, I explained it already.
Ryan: Still don't understand it. Still I am very confused. I am angry.
Laura: Coming to you from the parking garage at Amoeba Music. I have been laura I'm just going.
Ryan: To put the canyons back on again for when I go to bed because it will immediately put me to sleep.
Laura: You know what I didn't get to say? I didn't get to say. Nod for me, baby. Nod for me, baby. Nod for me, baby.
Ryan: Yeah. Who cares if you nod for this?
Laura: Thank you guys, for being here for part three of Schrader Thon 2022. We'll see you for part four.
Ryan: Yeah, I'm looking forward to part four.
Laura: Because I got to tell you, what.
Ryan: It is has to be better than this.
Laura: Let me think of is it is it better? It is better. Oh, yeah. It's much better than this one. Hooked about that one. Fuck, I love that movie.
Ryan: Yeah, it's a fucking good film. Thank goodness. Christ. Yeah.
Laura: It's a rough dick scene, but that's a good movie.
Ryan: Yeah.
Laura: See you next time.
Ryan: So angry.