The Card Counter (2021) is our fourth and final (for now) episode of Schrader-thon 2022!
Part four and the end of Schrader-thon. Yeah, I know, I can sense your disappointment. But unlike our last episode, where the film was like crawling through broken glass, Schrader's THE CARD COUNTER (2021) is his follow up after the electrifying FIRST REFORMED. We follow gambling drifter Oscar Isaac as he tries to outrun his past as a soldier incarcerated for torturing prisoners of war. It's pretty dark, uncompromising and in perfect Paul Schrader fashion, has a man writing in a diary in it.
Ryan: It's a fallacy, right? Yeah. It's like, get me a burger, but then you never get the burger. It's weird.
Laura: That, uh, doesn't make any sense. But the only way in my head.
Ryan: In my head, I thought it was a lot better than I thought it was.
Laura: Hello there. Welcome to on the BiTTE the podcast that uncovers full frontal male nudity in cinema. My name is Laura, and I am joined by my co host, Ryan. Hello, Ryan. It's part four of schraderthon.
Ryan: Yeah, as far as we're aware, this is part four of, uh, Schraderthon.
Laura: Well, this is the fourth movie that we've oh, okay. That's what I mean.
Laura: All right, so we've done three.
Ryan: We have done three. And after three comes the card counter.
Laura: The card Counter, the 2021 drama. The Card counter, obviously directed by Paul Schrader, the shrades my boy. Yes, we know all about Schrader. You've told us all about him.
Ryan: Yeah, I've already told you all about Paul Schrader. And if you don't know about Paul Schrader by now, then what are you doing with your life?
Laura: How have you gotten to part four of The Glory of Schrader, thon, without learning so much?
Ryan: Yeah, I mean, as long as we batter our listeners over the head continually, then maybe they might be encouraged to check out part one, two, and three.
Laura: Of I mean, I just assume that they have it playing constantly because they're all perfect and so is Paul.
Ryan: I mean, that's okay. I mean, that sounded like a horrendous boost to your ego, but anyway, let's m yeah, let's carry on.
Laura: I don't need a boost.
Ryan: I'm already at the top.
Laura: I'm filled up.
Ryan: Uh oh. All right. Fool to the brim.
Laura: That's right.
Ryan: Yes. That's why we consider therapy.
Laura: So this film stars Oscar Isaac as William Tell, tiffany Haddish as Lalinda, ty Sheridan as Kirk with a C, and Willem Dafoe as John Gordo.
Ryan: Yeah, we saw this movie in the cinema. When it came out, I was so stoked.
Laura: Obviously, you know why?
Ryan: Yeah. To be fair, one is because it was directed by Paul Schrader, but your love of Paul Schrader was kind of that was that was gestated effectively in 2021. Yes, but also 2021 marked the time when it felt considerably safer to potentially go and sit in a cinema with other people.
Laura: Well, the last film I saw of Schraders in the theater was obviously First Reformed, uh, where I went with a friend, and I think we were two of maybe two people in theater. There might not have been anyone else in there, so I knew I was probably pretty safe to go see the Card Counter with you. How many people were in the theater, maybe? Well, actually, it was a pretty small theater that time in a small theater. There was actually probably, like, six other people in there, two groups.
Ryan: But the average age in there, even including us, was close to, like, 50.
Laura: They were all so, uh, it was a weird thing because as we were watching the movie, wasn't it? It was choppy, and it was getting out of sync. And no one wanted to get up, obviously, because no one wanted to miss anything. But it kept chopping, and it was all fucked up.
Ryan: So basically, the hour and 40 minutes film ended up being two and a half hours because of the technical issues we had. But it was happening during the moment that had the most tension.
Laura: The interrogation scene between and Tell.
Ryan: Yes. It kept on cutting out halfway through the scene. And I think we saw this scene maybe three or four times.
Laura: Yeah, they kept having to wind it back. Oh, my gosh. What a nightmare.
Ryan: Well, we got free tickets, which we're still, uh, yet to use.
Laura: Well, that's because we have that regal pass, and the movie was essentially free in the first place.
Ryan: Yeah, that's also true. Yeah. We weren't particularly disappointed, let me tell you.
Laura: The synopsis of this film pulled from Letterboxd.
Ryan: Yes.
Laura: Let me put on my voice. Ready?
Ryan: Okay.
Laura: William Tell just wants to play cards. His Spartan existence on the casino trail is shattered when he is approached by Kirk, a, uh, vulnerable and angry young man seeking help to execute his plan for revenge on a military colonel. Tell sees a chance at redemption through his relationship with Kirk. But keeping Kirk on the straight and narrow proves impossible. Dragging Kirk back into the darkness of his past right. Actually, it should be dragging Tell back.
Ryan: Into the darkness of his yeah.
Laura: Because that's a mistake. Yeah, I didn't make that.
Ryan: No, no, I'm not saying that you did make that mistake, unless you did.
Laura: But, um, let's not double check, because remember, I don't make mistakes.
Ryan: So we'll just keep it yeah, there we go. Of course. Yeah.
Laura: The tagline, though, is Reap what you sow, which that's fine.
Ryan: Yeah. No, that's fine. Uh, I guess, uh, if you want to put it into kind of like, layman terms, and you kind of want to really truncate it and make it quite insular. It's a tale of redemption, for the most part.
Laura: Yeah. Redemption and revenge.
Ryan: Yes.
Laura: Like accidental revenge that he wasn't planning on.
Ryan: Yeah, I guess because he's running this life that he's currently in, because the film begins effectively in the prison. And how he's like, I didn't realize I would like prison so much. But it's purely because of, I guess, down to some rather innate obsessive compulsive, um, disorder. And also from being in the military, is that he just loves form and conformation and order and monotony and schedules and timing and just knowing what everything's going to be day in, day out.
Laura: Right.
Ryan: Um, he's not a massive fan of color. That's definitely for sure. Everything he wears is gray.
Laura: Um, it's like he's trying to put on a costume in a way where he's trying to show himself off as generic human being. He always does his hair the exact same way. He pretty much wears the same outfits all the time. It's just as though he doesn't want to be seen, noticed. Nothing you can tell in particular about him. He's just generic good guy.
Ryan: Yeah. He's got a kind of cookie cutter look about him, um, that effectively allows him to blend, uh, into the background and become relatively unseen, which I guess is what he's kind of looking for. But for the most part, I guess, certain attributations of his past is what's molded him into the person that he is today. So certainly, he might have been into color. He might have been into spontaneity. He might have been into, uh, the fruits of life if it wasn't for the fact that he'd spent years and years and years and years, uh, torturing people as a soldier and then taking the rap for that behavior, even though he was ordered by a higher up to do those war crimes.
Laura: It is rough.
Ryan: There is some shit in this movie.
Laura: There really is. And it's one of those things where, in terms of what our podcast is about and the films that we pick and why we pick them, this is a tough one because we haven't necessarily done one like this one, uh, involving nudity via war crime.
Ryan: There's certainly plenty of films like this that we will cover eventually, 100%.
Laura: It's just the ones that are hard.
Ryan: To talk about, certainly because we're still in the early beginnings of this podcast, because we're less than 30 and this is like episode 28 or something. Um, we're not really wanting to cover the Hard Edge films because there's hundreds to cover. We're not doing Schindler's List for a good reason.
Laura: Not wanting to dive into yeah, we're.
Ryan: Not doing Come and we're not doing Come and See, um, for very similar reasons. And I think the other movie I'm thinking of is another Spielberg movie, uh, about the slavery on the boats. What's that? Amadeus.
Laura: Yeah.
Ryan: So there's also that, uh wait, Amadeus is Mozart is it Amadeus? Amistad.
Laura: Amistad.
Ryan: Yeah. Always mix them up. Yeah. Amadeus. Is that Milos Foreman movie? I'm not very good at that.
Laura: Is it Amadeus Mozart?
Ryan: Right, right. So it's amistad, then? Yeah. Honestly, that is probably I'm into Double Figures, matthew McConaughey making that.
Laura: Yeah. Um, there's there's a few of those other ones. Ones that actually are probably going to be coming up.
Ryan: Yeah. One's about music, one's about slavery. Um, yeah. So you probably don't want to make that mistake when you go to the video shop. Um, right. Yeah. Um, yes.
Ryan: This is where obviously we start. We delve into, I guess, like, darker depictions of full frontal male nudity.
Laura: This is the first of the Schrader films where the nudity has zero to do with sex. All of the other ones have to do with sex in some form.
Ryan: Yes.
Laura: Leading up to it. This is the complete opposite, this force.
Ryan: Yeah. But that's also not to say that those depictions weren't dark either. Because certainly the canyons, I don't find that to be particularly it's not light and fruity.
Laura: No, of course not. Well, none of his films are. But it's a lead up to a sexual act or the post of a sexual act.
Ryan: Yeah.
Laura: Um, American Jiggle is not in a sad context or a bad context. Canyons is rough.
Ryan: No, there's some rough stuff in like there is some rough stuff in Jiggle, though, as well.
Laura: Um, I mean, Cat People was after.
Ryan: I mean, I think we're trying to make some level of distinction. But I guess this is where it's.
Laura: Like this is ah, a different schrader nudity.
Ryan: This is different. And we subcategorize these moments.
Laura: And there is sex in this film.
Ryan: But the nudity is no room with a view, let's put it that way.
Laura: Oh my God. What a treasure.
Ryan: Yeah, that's a lot more jovial and innocent. This is just like, oh fuck, this is horrible.
Laura: Guys covered in shit.
Ryan: Men covered in shit. And they're being uh, dehumanized and they're going through sensory deprivation and they're being uh, sexually humiliated. And it's, uh, the music.
Laura: Everyone probably remembers when that stuff came out about the torture.
Ryan: Yeah. So basically from the advent of the second Iraq War, um, or Gulf War II, um, yeah. Obviously there was very real, true to life stuff that came out. And obviously with the advent of the internet and things, because uh, there's highlights to, uh, Oscar Isaac's character in the movie, where he has an obvious dislike of the internet because the way he gets imprisoned is because he's in photos, uh, committing these horrible things. And if anyone does remember, those photos were released quite a few years ago of uh, soldiers basically defaming these prisoners, uh, of war.
Laura: Yep. And just seemingly having a great time doing it.
Ryan: Yes. And yeah, the focus in this movie is in uh, Abu grade, um, where they had a prison there where they were torturing and interrogating. And obviously I'm not uh, particularly clued up in that stuff because it's fucking horrible. But yeah, this is uh, referencing more towards that stuff.
Laura: Yeah.
Laura: So it's interesting because we have Ty Sheridan, who's in this movie, who plays Kirk with a C. And apparently Shia LaBeouf was meant to play that role. And he actually dropped off because there were scheduling conflicts.
Ryan: Okay. I think either way, either one of them would have is the thing is, I see with Ty Sheridan, I like Ty Sheridan, but I also get him mixed up with a bunch of other folk, like Taryn Egerton and Ezra Miller. And, uh, that Barry cogan. And obviously I don't want to put Barry Cogan in the same box as like Ezra Miller because I don't think Ezra Miller is actually any good anyway. I think he's a bit shit.
Laura: Yeah.
Ryan: Um, he's not in a good place. No, I think he's just not very good actor. And Taryn Egerton, I could be like.
Laura: I think he's a bad actor. I don't think he's a bad actor.
Laura: But we need to talk about Kevin. I don't think you've seen that yet. But he is really good in that movie. But it also kind of shows how dark you can get.
Ryan: And then I didn't watch that movie because I didn't like Lynn Ramsey's other movie. Like we were really here. That, uh wacky you were never really here. Yeah, I didn't really like that movie that much.
Laura: Um, kevin's better.
Ryan: Okay. Kevin's better. Well, that's good.
Laura: But he's good in that. I don't want to defend him and his personal choices in life. But, uh, you're right. He has a face that reminds me of a lot of different faces as well.
Ryan: Yeah. There ends up being this kind of blending of that particular group of individuals where I'm just kind of like they feel like they're doing the same thing. Although ty sheridan at least he was in Joe. Um yeah.
Laura: Nicolas Cage actually recommended to Schrader that Ty Sheridan play, uh, this role.
Ryan: Yeah. Because they were both in mhm.
Laura: Yeah.
Ryan: That movie is real good. Real good. Um, but yeah, no, I think in everything he's kind of been in, I've always enjoyed his presence in it.
Laura: Um, well, he played young Cyclops too, so he and Oscar Isaac, of course.
Ryan: Because worked together before in Cyclops.
Laura: The second worst X Men movie ever made.
Ryan: Um yeah.
Laura: After Dark Phoenix.
Ryan: Yeah. I mean, that's like there's a lot.
Laura: Of good X Men movies.
Ryan: No, there's not.
Laura: Yes, there is.
Ryan: There's only one.
Laura: First class is really good. Days of future past is awesome. And then you have the first regular X Men movie with Patrick Stewart. Awesome. X Men Two is awesome. And X Men Three, when you look back on it, has the same kind of feeling, like Spiderman Three, where after a little bit of rumination, it's not so bad.
Ryan: Let's just talk about this movie because X, uh, men sucks.
Laura: I don't appreciate this at all.
Ryan: Yeah.
Laura: So it's funny because there's so many, uh, with Schrader. He has a lot of parallels between all of his films. And I was asking you about this while we were watching the movie where you have William Tell and he's writing in a diary. And I said to you, aren't there a lot of Schrader movies where dudes are know, you got your lonely boys writing in know, uh, Taxi Driver, which he didn't direct. But still it's his movie light sleeper. Also, you have Willem Dafoe. He's always writing in a diary too.
Ryan: I mean bringing out the dead's. Also another one.
Laura: Has he got a diary?
Ryan: Don't know if he has a diary, but certainly there's so much voiceover in that movie.
Laura: Yeah.
Ryan: Um, you could always put that down to Scorseseisms. But at the same time, it's written by Paul Schrader?
Laura: Yes.
Ryan: Um, as well, was co written by Paul Schrader. Um, yeah. No, I've always kind of found Pulse Raider stuff's very much like literature. It's incredibly deep and it's affecting. And also because of the mechanics and the conventions of cinema, um, it's very difficult to show what a character is genuinely thinking and getting across their thought process, which is why, obviously, we have voiceover. So he always kind of seems to use a diary or the diary idea to allow the characters to vocalize what their internal thought process is. And that can be a double edged sword. It can be really good. Let's say, for example, in Taxi, uh, Driver. I think it's very effective. I think in this, it's very effective.
Laura: Yeah.
Ryan: And there's other times where you're just kind of like it feels a bit shoehorned in, like the original cut of Blade Runner, which it feels like it's a bit of a hammer. Um, but I feel like yeah, just because cinema is just purely a visual medium, I feel like having a device there to help us vocalize what a character is thinking just gives particular characters, specific characters a means in which to vocalize their internal thinking. So it's just not so purely visual. Because at the end of the day, if he could write a book, I think he would just write a book. Because obviously, uh, that's the benefits. The perks of, uh, writing a book is, like how deep you can go. That's how you, uh, extend out, say, uh, a moment that takes, like, half a second in real life time. Can be 400 pages in a book.
Laura: Right. Yeah, definitely. There's that same scene. I think it's the first time that we see him writing in his journal, where you see his tattoo on his back.
Ryan: Yes.
Laura: Which is in the worst font I've ever seen.
Ryan: Yeah. I mean, it's also probably a prison tattoo as well. Or it could have been done when he was a soldier.
Laura: It says, I trust my life to providence. I trust my soul to grace. Didn't, um, know what it meant. And you said it was probably a Bible verse.
Ryan: Yeah. Before we well, this was me remembering or misremembering from seeing the movie in the cinema. But I thought it was maybe a Bible verse.
Laura: Right. Classic prison tattoo.
Ryan: Potentially. Well, again, it's all about redemption. It's like when people, uh, pray to God on their deathbed. You know what I mean? It's like they're supposedly redeemable because in this one moment, you pray to your metaphysical, uh, your metaphysical being, and you'll be all right when you go into the next life, which doesn't exist, obviously.
Laura: My God. Um, well, I was doing some research on it, and apparently it's a reference to another Schrader film starring Willem Dafoe Light Sleeper that I just talked about, where the opening sequence of the film, the main character is walking around New York and the song World on Fire by Michael Bean is being played. And that tattoo is from lyrics from that song.
Ryan: Okay.
Laura: And also it's interesting because the composer for the card counter is Michael Bean's son. Uh, who's? Robert Bean? And he's actually the singer for Black Rebel Motorcycle Club.
Ryan: Right.
Laura: So the guy who wrote the song sun composed the music for this film.
Ryan: Right. That's not Michael Bean.
Laura: As in no, not Michael Bain.
Ryan: Not Michael Bain.
Laura: B-E-E-N. Got you.
Ryan: It's not hex.
Laura: No.
Ryan: Right. Okay.
Laura: So there's a lot of, uh, parallels to Light Sleeper, I think more than any of his other films. This particular one.
Ryan: Okay. I mean, I would refer to the card counter. And obviously, previously he'd made first reformed. There's a couple of other movies as well, before obviously we get to Canyons, the disruptive and obviously Cataclysmic Canyons movie. Um, but this is kind of like the next stage of schrader, you know what I mean?
Laura: He's definitely having a resurgence right now. And I think he there's a level.
Ryan: Of consistency in his stuff that's like I mean, he's had two good movies in a row now, uh, which is nice. And they've got a nice kind of polished production look about them.
Laura: Yes.
Ryan: Which you'd never be like, holy fuck, this is the same guy that made The Canyons. Um, they both look both movies. I mean, First Reforms especially, I think is a fantastic movie.
Laura: But the Canyons dragged so that First Reformed and Card counter could run.
Ryan: Okay, that's fine. Yeah. I mean, he's just holding his head above water, but he's using the canyons as, uh, the canyons as corpse, as the stepping stone to keep him from the surface of the water, which I'm perfectly fine with.
Laura: I'm going to, um, continue to be a canyon topologist.
Ryan: I love. Yeah, whatever. Yeah. It's like the same within the cut, even though it's terrible.
Laura: Still didn't I don't know.
Ryan: Yeah. You're all liars. That's all I'm saying. You're all liars.
Laura: Do you remember that guy, uh, that Ukrainian guy in the movie?
Ryan: Mr. USA?
Laura: USA.
Ryan: Yeah. I think he's a very deliberate, if not incredibly unsubtle kind of reference to one of the main prevailing kind of themes or at least one of the prevailing, um, ideas or certainly characterizations for Oscar Isaac is that, uh, I don't think Oscar Isaac's character is a particularly big fan of America.
Laura: Um, I don't know if I would say that necessarily.
Ryan: I mean, he served his country and I think he felt like he was stabbed in the back. But for the most part.
Laura: But he's not bitter about it, though.
Ryan: I think he just feels well, he accepted guilty. He accepted what he'd done.
Laura: Yes.
Ryan: I just don't think he was particularly proud.
Laura: Of course not. Uh, because when you look back at something such, uh, as that, when you're put into a horrible situation where you have someone above you, your boss telling you, I think you'd be really good at this job. And the job is torturing human beings in a way that's obviously not effective. And we all know that that type of interrogation doesn't work.
Ryan: No.
Laura: Yet you're told that you'd be great at it. You do it, you are good at it. And what that makes you think about yourself, looking back when you're put into that situation where you have that music playing and it's loud, and you're inside of it, uh, you're inside of this horrible situation, and yeah, I can't even imagine what that would be like, looking back on the things that you've done yeah. And why it makes sense that he's always trying to run away from it and trying to keep his mind occupied on the one thing he's super good at.
Ryan: Well, I always kind of saw that stuff as uh because there's religious aspects to Schrader's work, where it's all about kind of uh like the idea of self flagellation and punishing yourself for your beliefs to try and because effectively, where he was working was like a self made hell. That's what it looked like. It's like Jacob's ladder hell.
Laura: Oh my God. That's what it looks like 100%.
Ryan: And he's just continually trying to claw his way out of it, even though he knows deep down that he can't atone for the sins that he's committed. There no um which is why he punishes himself continually, and why he's trying to save yeah, it's why he sterilizes uh, his environment. And he lacks any sort of uh, stimulation, like no visual stimulation, no kind of emotional stimulation. And certainly with the female characters role, uh, in this movie is that she's kind of, I guess, the light in his relatively quite dark life.
Laura: Yes.
Ryan: And I guess kind of to put it all kind of into perspective is that when he's traveling around and he's going from hotel room to motel room to parking lot to other parking lot to casino to casino, everything just looks the same. There's no sense of grandeur or spectacle about the places he's going to, which.
Laura: Is funny because he's in these brightly lit, loud, sparkly casinos. It never feels that way. It never feels bright and loud and sparkly.
Ryan: No, this isn't like casino, like Scorsese's Casino, where everything's kind of very kind of bright and colorful, even though it.
Laura: Is it's so strange because it is bright and colorful, but you don't feel that at all.
Ryan: Yeah.
Laura: You're just walking through with this guy.
Ryan: Well, the Scorsese movie at least covered what they felt was the golden age of Vegas.
Laura: Mhm.
Ryan: So everything was a little bit more colorful, uh, and authentic, as opposed to what it effectively became.
Laura: Because he doesn't spend tell doesn't spend time really in Vegas at all. He's in small Indian casinos throughout.
Ryan: Yeah, he's just going from reservation to reservation, basically, um, just to kind of.
Laura: Keep under the radar, pretty much.
Ryan: And he's like he's winning goals. Yeah. He's, like, winning less than $1,000 every day he's there. And he doesn't overstay his welcome.
Laura: Uh, just enough to get him through to the next place.
Ryan: Pretty much. Yeah. Pretty much. It's pretty sad, and it's pretty kind of sterile, and it's just very, um his life is not particularly interesting or intriguing.
Laura: Not interested in going to museums or anything.
Laura: You know, what I found fascinating is the reasoning for Tell to wrap up his furniture in the hotel rooms. Apparently hearkens back to Cat people.
Ryan: Right.
Laura: So the production designer for Cat People, uh, Ferdinando Scarfiati, so he was a production designer, and Schrader said that when they were in New Orleans, he went up to the production designer's room to just ask him about something, and all of his furniture was wrapped up in sheets. And he goes, Nando, why is everything wrapped up? And he said, I have to live here. Uh, that's all he said. He's just I have to live here. So I guess he was just more about aesthetics, and he said he couldn't stand the idea of living in an ugly hotel, so he just wrapped everything up in sheets.
Ryan: Okay.
Laura: And that was Schrader kind of thinking back to that and going, well, this is a way for Tell to kind of purify his private yeah. Was just from what he saw in real life years ago.
Ryan: Yeah.
Laura: So weird.
Ryan: It's strange.
Laura: I mean, I guess it also reminds you of, know, in a sort of dexter type of way before we murder somebody, putting the plastic sheets over everything to just keep, uh, it clean. So it's an easy cleanup, too.
Ryan: Especially.
Laura: At the end of the film.
Ryan: Yeah. Well, I always kind of hearken to that. There's a moment in one of the episodes, a cracker, where, uh, a woman's invited back to a man's house, and he's like, yeah, come with me. And they open up like a door. I've always thought it was, like, probably the most nightmarish moment anyone could have in their life, but just open a door, and all the walls are just covered in, like, sheet plastic. Ah, it's just black bin bags, and it's just like, all right, well, I'm going to die now.
Laura: Yeah.
Ryan: This is it.
Laura: If I walked into someone's hotel room and everything was covered up in sheets, I would definitely think dying. Absolutely.
Ryan: Yeah. I would just accept it because, uh, you got to go some way, uh, somehow, at some point in your life.
Laura: He even has Kirk go into his hotel room when he's trying to convince him, because Kirk's journey or his motivation is to kill Gordo, willem Dafoe for what? He blames him for his father killing himself.
Ryan: So, yeah, Gordo Gordo or Major Gordo at the time, he obviously recruited a bunch of these MPs that go in, and he trains them to become, uh, these torturers, um, interrogation specialists. Interrogation specialists, basically. Um, but obviously, some of them obviously came out. Some went to prison. Uh, and some were mentally horrifically scarred. And they've had horrible lives. Or they've committed suicide, in the case of, uh, his father.
Laura: Yes. So he blaming Gordo for that. That's how he meets. Says I need help to murder this guy, which the whole time in this film, tell is trying to get him off this path, have him go back to school, have him talk to his mom again and kind of put him back on the right path. At least the path that he didn't go down, unfortunately. Uh, so he ends up in this interrogation scene, which is horrific. The one we were talking about, where the screen kept cutting out the cinema, where Kel sits him down in his creepy hotel room and says, I'm going to give you $150,000 to do the right thing.
Ryan: Yeah. Because he opens up a bag and it's got like rubber gloves and hammers and all sorts of stuff in it.
Laura: Super, um, weird. And it makes me wonder, does he carry that around with him or did he pick it up as a prop?
Ryan: He always carries it around with him.
Laura: Why would he carry that around with him? If he's trying to shed his past and forget what happened?
Ryan: I think it's because he just can't let go. It's like it's an intrinsic part of him now.
Laura: Weird.
Ryan: And you never know. You never know when you're going to have to break someone's fingers with a hammer. It's always good to know. Yeah. Or like when you have to burn someone's forehead with a fucking lit cigarette. I don't know. I don't know how that works.
Laura: It's so awful.
Ryan: Uh, well, he's a troubled man who's just had the life sucked out of him. And he's just kind of an automaton now. Uh.
Laura: I liked that scene, though. I thought it was pretty good.
Ryan: Yeah, it was great. It was terrible in the cinema, watching it on the TV. You finally got to watch it all the way through without interruption. And it was yeah, it was pretty good.
Laura: He snaps on those blue rubber gloves and then pushes Kirk onto the bed. And you kind of think, where is this going to go?
Ryan: Yeah. It didn't go where you thought it was going to go.
Laura: Would have been pretty cool.
Ryan: Perv um, yeah.
Laura: This is not a proposal that you can afford to reject.
Ryan: He says, yeah.
Laura: Do you want to talk about the dick scenes? Do you want to just get it out of the way? Because it's rough. I mean, we've already covered a bit of it, but I feel like we need to give it its due.
Laura: Chat yeah. There's two, and these are in the one of them is basically a memory. Dream is just a memory.
Ryan: Yeah. So I guess the main thing, like the memories are shown through this warped lens. And I think anyone who's ever shot anything on one. Of those 360 cameras that's like, you're obviously seeing a 360 degree view, uh, in front of the lens. Um, but this is kind of like a 180 view, and it kind of warps in, um, towards the middle. Um, so everyone kind of walks kind of, like, funky when you see it kind of happening. But basically you see everything. So I guess it's meant to illustrate, like, someone walking through, and it's their eyesight, effectively. And you're seeing everything in their periphery as well. Uh, that's what I kind of saw it being as. But I think this first moment, um, when we first see Abu Grade, it is a dream because he's actively asleep.
Laura: Yes.
Ryan: Um, and it's a tracking shot through the prison.
Laura: Yeah. As if he's just walking through.
Ryan: Yes.
Laura: It's really intense to watch. It's super loud. It's hard to watch, too. It's very trippy and very awkward to watch. If it did it for any longer than they did in the film, I would have gotten sick.
Ryan: Yeah, I guess, um, it's kind of also helped.
Ryan: There's a lot of tracks by Toxic Shock in this movie. Uh, a band relatively unknown, um, or at least seem to be relatively unknown. There's a few of their tracks in this movie, but whatever song they pick, I think it's like, sludgemaster or something for this song. It's just basically like hardcore fucking punk metal just, like, blasting out over the course of this prison. And it just really characterizes this fucking place.
Laura: The hectic violence of this place pretty.
Ryan: Much like the consistent sense of dread and violence that's just, like, permeating the entire place. And the walls are, like, slightly brown, yellow. Um, yeah. Um, obviously, some of the people are covered in their own shit.
Laura: Yeah. You just see people kind of lined up against the wall. You have soldiers actively torturing people as you're walking through, uh, people tied up with bags over their heads. It's horrific. And so, during this scene, you see someone getting actively tortured, um, standing in the middle of one of the hallways, who's completely naked. Looks like they're just covered in feces and dirt and just horrible. Um, and there's a few of those. Quite a few. There's not a lot of full frontal, just the one person. But a lot of people are naked. I don't know.
Ryan: Well, we see it from far away, and it's one of the female soldiers. And she's got, like, a nightstick, and she's just beating the fuck out of him.
Laura: Yeah.
Ryan: Effectively.
Laura: My God.
Ryan: Um, also, obviously, not to distract from that particular moment, but obviously there's a man running around, uh, covered in his own shit.
Laura: Yes.
Ryan: Who's in the foreground when that does happen? Uh, being chased by someone, probably. Um, yeah. Uh, it's hard. We can't make it. There's no funny way of putting it. It's just kind of like, yeah, here it is. And this is fucking horrendous.
Laura: Yeah. It's very visceral. And it's very upsetting to watch. And of course, the way that I get through things that are uncomfortable is I like to laugh. It just sounds mhm dreadful.
Ryan: Yeah.
Laura: When we were watching that scene, which I said I wasn't going to bring up, but I am, but I was like, hey, imagine just getting, uh, a part in this film and you're so excited, and you're in the Abu grabe scene, and you go, hey, Mom, I got that part in the movie. And then she watches the movie and goes, oh, God.
Ryan: Oh, jesus, Jimmy. Oh, Jimmy. Man God, why did you have to accept that bit in the movie, Jimmy?
Laura: Oh, dear. It's.
Ryan: Directed by Paul Schreider It's like, okay.
Laura: Yeah.
Ryan: Jimmy.
Laura: Then the that's a 21 minutes and 50 seconds. And then there's a part 55 minutes and 50 seconds in where it's kind of the so basically the VHS quality, um, as though it's the actual footage from the war is what it looks like.
Ryan: Yeah. So I would say it's like a mix of m there's a mix of stock footage in there, there's news footage. Um, but there's these enacted moments where he's describing the torture techniques that they were put through to learn of these torture techniques to basically train American soldiers if they're ever caught by, uh, let's say, the enemy right. That they would be able to withstand these techniques. And I guess they go into relatively great amount of detail about all these certain things, position they would be in, and then obviously, the sexual humiliation aspect of it, where there's a guy in a chair who stood up and they pull down his pants.
Laura: Yes.
Ryan: And we see everything and we know it's enacted because the next shot that falls, it is in slow motion. So there's definitely no way that they've.
Laura: Uh you can't slow it down in post.
Ryan: Yeah. It's proper slow motion, though. Okay. Yeah. So you can tell you can tell it's been over cranked. It's definitely slow motion. And also, it looks better than the stuff that comes afterwards, which is obviously actual news footage.
Laura: Yeah. In terms of that visibility and context, it is a rough one.
Ryan: Yeah. And I guess because it's one of the primary concerns of the main character, that's why it's all sort of there.
Laura: Indeed.
Ryan: Yeah.
Laura: It's tough stuff. Uh, it's a sad day for me when I get to see a dick in a film. And then I go, oh, no.
Ryan: Yeah. You're just like, oh, well.
Laura: Oh, dear.
Ryan: Oh, Paul.
Laura: Oh, Paul.
Ryan: Paul, why'd you do it to us, Paul?
Laura: Paul. Thank you know, keeping it real, but good God.
Ryan: Yeah.
Laura: Gotta talk about it now.
Ryan: But yeah. Uh, that's the dick scenes.
Laura: He has the dick scenes.
Laura: You get a film with two and then they're both horrible.
Ryan: They're pretty horrific. Yeah, they're pretty horrific.
Laura: Um, but you can appreciate the fact that someone tells it like it is. You have this situation, you're pulling from a real life story, a real life situation of things that happen to real people. Some fucked up, horrible things. And the shrades doesn't shy away from that in his film. So you can appreciate that for what it is and putting it in the film and making people feel uncomfortable. Um, because you can have many kinds of different dick scenes as he had in his other films. You have the sexual scenes and then you have the ones that are uncomfortable and show the humiliation of people, uh, in this way and how it happened. And, uh, it's rough, but the man has a variety.
Ryan: Uh, yeah, I guess if that's the way. Fortunately, yeah. If you want to spin the negative into a positive and be like, this.
Laura: Is very in the way that you aren't going to cut away from something like that when you're showing a truly horrific situation. I don't know. It's a responsibility to show things like that because it's uncomfortable.
Ryan: Yeah. I guess there comes an argument in there whether or not this unflinching approach, uh, I guess or if it's just for shock value. I guess there'll be films of this type where we're going to be covering that particular aspect. And I say come and see is a very notable one for that aspect because that film uses primarily, it's just stock footage, technically doesn't need to be there, but there's a very specific reason why it's there. And also for, I would say, Schindler's List, which is all enacted. That's not stock footage. That's all real people doing it. Um, and that movie obviously has that film is particularly rough.
Laura: Well, you don't want to say I wouldn't say it's necessarily for shock value, for shock's sake. Because especially the way that he shot it, it makes sense for what it is. I guess maybe the whole sequences are shocking.
Ryan: They're shocking. Yeah. I guess you have to question a lot of the contextual reasoning for that sort of stuff as well.
Laura: Contextually. Uh, it makes sense for it to be there, especially the way that he filmed it. But yeah, it still sucks.
Ryan: Yeah, of course it does. No one's having a good time.
Laura: Gets into this really crazy stuff with Kirk M. Um, yeah.
Ryan: Well, you think he's turning his life around because I keep on forgetting her. Yeah. She's not good in the movie. She's the weakest part of the movie.
Laura: It sucks that she's not great.
Laura: Because I love Tiffany Haddish, and I know it's probably not the easiest thing to go from being mostly a comedic actor into something like this, but I know Schrader has a history of doing or casting comedic actors. In serious know you had Richard Pryor in, uh, blue collar.
Ryan: Uh huh.
Laura: And he's awesome. He's awesome in that.
Ryan: But with Tiffany Haddish, it's because they tend to find it easier to go into dramatic roles. Like know, like robin Williams, jim Carrey. Like, they've yeah, they're just they're very good at just being able to do that. I don't know what Tyler Perry is. He a good example of being able to I mean, he's good and Gone Girl, I guess.
Laura: Um, no, Tyler Perry is a good actor.
Ryan: Yeah. When he's not like, simultaneously shooting, like, fucking 400 TV shows all at once. Right. Uh um, yeah.
Laura: She's not amazing because there's times where you can watch her in this film and you go, uh, acting.
Ryan: It feels very forced.
Laura: But there's times where she kind of lightens up and she throws a funny line in there. And it is quite natural. What was that part where she and Tell are sitting at the bar and there is one of the dealers, the poker dealers is sitting down on the other side of the bar drinking. And she's sobbing.
Ryan: Yeah, she's like actively sobbing.
Laura: Uh, and Lalinda goes, uh, what does she say?
Ryan: She's like, um, I'm fucking all right.
Laura: Yeah. The car dealer is like, yeah, I'm fucking all right. And she's just sobbing.
Ryan: And then she just goes, fucking all right. Crying and.
Laura: Shit.
Ryan: My favorite line in the yeah, it's pretty funny. That, uh, bit is pretty funny.
Laura: Yeah. I don't know. Maybe she loosened up.
Ryan: Yeah.
Laura: Potentially got more comfortable. Because there are times later on in the film I doubt they shot this in sequence or anything.
Ryan: But no.
Laura: Uh, there's definitely scenes where you see her getting more comfortable and it flows really, really well. But there are other scenes early on in the movie not great.
Ryan: Yeah. It just feels a little when they meet a little bit stealthy, a little bit wooden.
Laura: She asks for a Tom collins and then she's like, why don't you spend some time with me? And it's so weird not work.
Ryan: And it's maybe more to do with the fact that Oscar Isaacs is, ah, incredibly seasoned and he's very charismatic. And maybe in comparison to him, she's just a little bit stilted because he fucking sells everything. Oh, yeah. Um, if it wasn't for him. But I don't know where the movie would be. Um, no. Yeah. Is that the rain?
Laura: It is pouring.
Ryan: Was it thunder earlier as well? Is that what I was hearing? Yes. All right. Okay. Uh, yeah, that's fine. Just to put some context to this, because I'm leaving this in, just so you're aware.
Laura: We tried to record it faster, but it didn't happen.
Ryan: Yeah, we tried our best, but we can hear certain things. Um, yeah, I guess that's the only thing.
Ryan: I mean, Willem Dafoe's in the movie for like maybe.
Laura: Five yeah. Baby.
Ryan: Do you feel it? And he's got he's got a mustache.
Laura: He has a mustache that looks exactly like yours. Yes. There's two films that I've watched recently where people have your mustache. And they're both villains.
Ryan: I just want to put that out. You know the uncle from Gone Baby, gone.
Laura: And willem.
Ryan: Dafoe. He's straight Boston. That dude though. That makes sense.
Laura: You've got a villain stash and I love it.
Ryan: I don't have a villain stash. Villain? No, I've got a disgruntled worker stash because it goes with my fucking disgruntled face. Like I'm just continually pissed off about everything.
Laura: Your resting bitch face.
Ryan: My resting bitch face? Yeah, which was once referred to from a girl at a party one, uh, time. Did I ever tell you this story?
Laura: You did, but the audience hasn't heard it.
Ryan: Yeah. So I was at a Valentine's night party. Um, so cute. And I was outside. It fucking sucked. Um, I'd go out to have a cigarette and then eventually I thought was on my own. And then a bunch of people came after. And obviously conversation is thick and fast and a little bit shit. But anyway, we were talking and this girl, this random last no idea who she was. Um, she just goes, you've got a rest in bitch face? Like, right to me. And I was just like, oh, really? It's called a flirt. And I was just like I was like, well, you fucking failed, obviously. Later that night, I think we ended up leaving that place and we went somewhere else. But there was someone else who was okay. There was someone else interested in me. And they'd been conspiring against each other. Wow. And I went out for another cigarette. And before I knew it, the lassie who I'd been talking to, uh, the other girl had thrown a drink right.
Laura: In her face over you. Wow. Hot stud hendo.
Ryan: That's fine. But the idea of two women fucking arguing over me and throwing drinks at each other when I wasn't even there, I just went to go have a cigarette. And I come back and it's just like I kind of turned and I went, why are you all wet?
Laura: Good.
Ryan: God. Covered in like a vodka and.
Laura: Coke.
Laura: Uh, speaking of being covered, uh, in something, do you want to talk about the very end of this film?
Ryan: What do you mean? Oh, talking about poop again?
Laura: No, I was talking about blood this.
Ryan: Time. So this is that bit where, you know, it's like where you repent your sins and stuff. Basically, him, he confronts, uh, Oscar Isaacs does. He confronts Willem Dafoe's character at his home after Willem Dafoe shot Ty Sheridan and murdered him because Ty Sheridan went.
Laura: After him just like he said he wouldn't. And he went out there with a dart full of ketamine thinking that's going to take down Willem Dafoe. Jokes on him. Nothing can take him down except Oscar Isaac.
Ryan: Yeah. I mean, well, they meet and they talk and they're still soldiers. But, uh, yeah, they end up going.
Laura: To do a dramatic reenactment of their interrogation techniques in this kitchen. Yeah, they do.
Ryan: They fuck each other up big time.
Laura: All you hear yeah.
Ryan: You never see any of it.
Laura: Groans and yells. Yeah. And then Oscar walks out covered in blood, two fingers hanging loose off of his hand in a pretty brutal way. Gets on the phone and calls emergency services and says, I'd like to report a homicide.
Ryan: Yeah.
Laura: Cool as a cucumber.
Ryan: Yeah. I mean, he's desperate to go back to prison because that's where everything kind of made sense. Because he's always talking about how what he's doing and where his life's going is that he's just passing time. Yeah. He's just not a massive fan of life.
Laura: No. And the very end, basically, the credits of this film is super similar to American Jiggle and Light Sleeper, where you.
Ryan: I don't like the ending of this movie.
Laura: I don't like the ending to American Jiggle either. It's, uh, the same type of thing where you have two people separated by prison. It's as though they're perspectives returning to well, especially in this film, he's returning to his cage and you've got two people staring at each other, or just two people separated by that pane of glass. And you've got this kind of Et moment where they reach out and press each other's fingers against one against the glass.
Ryan: And they hold it for the entire length of the credits.
Laura: I just see Paul going, hold it there, guys.
Ryan: Hold and she's got those ridiculous nails.
Laura: As well, where she can't just put her fingers straight to the glass. She has to bend it straight up.
Ryan: To bend it straight up. It's at a horrible right angle. Yeah. Because she's got those, like, six inch nails. And they're just like yeah.
Laura: They'd hold it for the whole credits. Fingers, uh, love, baby. See the life they could have had together if Ty Sheridan hadn't fucked it up. Maybe they would have had a couple months. Maybe they would have had years.
Ryan: I mean, to be fair, Willem Dafoe says it in the movie, where they're all responsible for their own actions. Absolutely. Like, Oscar didn't have to murder Willem Dafoe. Well, he knows that he didn't have to.
Laura: No. Because he was living just a fine existence. Town town casino.
Ryan: I mean, he wasn't living a fine existence like his vocalization of some of the things that was going around in his head. He was fucking troubled.
Laura: Oh, well, yeah. But I mean, he was surviving. I mean, that's wasn't hurting anybody.
Ryan: That's the thing. Like, what's the point in life, though, if you're just barely surviving?
Laura: You never know. See, here's me being the positive one, saying all things might have gone really well between Linda and Tell. You never know. And then, uh, here you are.
Ryan: It seems like fire in a jar. Like it would just get extinguished, uh.
Laura: Relatively quickly, potentially, uh, just because of how he is. But I don't know if he persists. She went and saw him in prison and they've touched fingers and glass together.
Ryan: Yeah. They had that lovely memory of being in that light exhibit thing. Although I always yeah. I mean, those things are fine. I mean, we've seen a few of them in our time. They're a little bit light garden. It's a little bit tiresome after a while.
Laura: Well, she was showing him what life could be. Do something different. Great.
Ryan: Mix it up.
Laura: Yeah.
Laura: The last, uh, couple of things I wanted to bring up before we are finished is that this was obviously filmed during our ongoing COVID situation. So production was halted, um, five days before. They had five days of shooting left. And they had a really big scene. There was 500 extras. Kind of crazy. Yeah. One extra that flew in from La. Tested positive. So they had to shut down. And they shut down from March until July. And so, uh, Schrader obviously never shying away from how he feels and making sure everyone knows how he feels, wrote on his Facebook.
Ryan: Yeah. Proprietor of controversy. Old Shreds.
Laura: I love him. He goes, production halted five days before rap by my pussified producers because an La. Day player had the coronavirus. And then he wrote, myself, I would have shot through the hellfire rain to complete the film. I'm old and asthmatic. What better way to die than on the job?
Ryan: Yeah, he's a very classical man, because Kurosawa said the exact same thing. Kurosawa was just like, if I'm going to die, it will be in my director's.
Laura: You know, I can see where he's coming from. Obviously, when you have that goal so close in mind. But especially when he was filming this COVID was not a joke. We can joke well, um, I don't know if we can joke about it now, but it's different.
Ryan: Obviously.
Laura: It's all like now from then. So then you've got someone rolling in with the old COVID is horrifying. Because I think that when they were filming this, we didn't have vaccines. We didn't have hope.
Ryan: This is hard into yeah, this will be hard into 2020 because we didn't see the movie until 2021. Correct. Let's say mid 2021. Let's just put a kind of date on it. Yeah. Um, no, for many of us, 2020, and I would say most of 2021 as well. Absolutely. Is when most of the time is lost. Uh, we were busy in 2020. I made films and stuff like that. 2021 is the year where I'm just like, holy shit, I have no idea what to do. Where time just gets lost.
Laura: That's early days, too. So when we went from having no time to do anything because we were so busy, we were working, we were moving. There was a lot going on to not doing anything at all. I think that was a really nice time for creative juices to get flowing. People started making bread, and people started working on films and writing and being creative. But then yeah, uh, that's kind of depleted a bit as we go on through this situation that we're in.
Ryan: But we're also more protected and we're not dealing with quite virulent strains of, uh, the virus now than we were when it first came, when the novel virus was out there.
Laura: Um, so imagining that gosh during this particular shoot.
Ryan: See, I'm a fan of that man's. Tenacity gumption. Yeah, I do like it. It does ring. And he's not the only filmmaker like this. It does ring of like grumpy old man syndrome. Um, and I mean, here's the thing. They did an entire shoot for the most part, they've got last five days. Someone fucks it up. Yes. And whether or not it was delivered or not, who knows? In Trader's Eyes, he's just like, I don't give a fuck. This is my movie. And I feel like that's a very old school way of thinking. That's a kind of freaking way of thinking.
Laura: Oh my god.
Ryan: Uh, yeah. It's like just batter through the walls. It's very much an old school way of thinking. And Scorsese to the same part as well, I feel know everyone's like, oh, he's so nice. But on a film set, he will fucking rip you apart. Yeah, he is a tiny man, but he is like a fucking honey badger. Like, he will kill you. Remember reading stories about him on the set of Gangs in New York? Because Gangs in New York, unfortunately, is a Miramax film. And like the Weinsteins couldn't even fucking he's a hard as a rock man.
Laura: That's what Schrader was saying is that somehow Scorsese has been able to work through, uh, the system with all different.
Ryan: Sorts of scorsese is very clever. That's why we have things like studio obligation films. Uh, like the remake of Cape Fear and that film's fucking amazing. Yeah.
Laura: So good. Schrader's like Netflix couldn't take him know, all these other companies couldn't rein him in.
Ryan: Because even when he started a fight with, like, he still kind of came out, uh, relatively know Schrader's.
Laura: Like, I can't do know. But I think Schrader, especially after the dying of the Light situation where he didn't final cut was taken away from him. And he feels like they ruined his film. Uh, he's learned a lot since then.
Ryan: Yeah, of course he has.
Laura: And now we've got gems.
Ryan: Um, Schrader makes much smaller films.
Laura: Calls them his handmade films.
Ryan: Yeah, they're much smaller films. They're much more intimate. Certainly Scorsese, in more than recent years, has been doing stuff with much bigger budgets. And he does make the OD little small thing here and there because he likes to divulge in these documentaries and stuff like that, which I think is pretty cool. But the Irishman, I mean, that movie was fucking very expensive to make.
Laura: He did all sorts of crazy camera stuff in that film.
Ryan: All the de, aging shit. Um, and I would say some of it works, some of it doesn't. I mean, I did like that mean. But it's labeled as like a Scorsese gangster epic.
Laura: Well, Scorsese was, um, an executive producer on this film.
Ryan: Yeah. Well, they're friends. They're friends because obviously, Schrader, uh, does a lot of his script writing he's done for, um, him. And he's cleaned up scripts and he's spoken to him and things like that.
Laura: Yeah. He had what happens he had Scorsese watch, like, the cut of this film. So when they broke for COVID for those several months, schrader was able to cut together like a 90 minutes version of the film. And he was able to do rewrites and make it.
Ryan: More thunder.
Laura: Yeah. Make it more kind of, uh, bello.
Ryan: Legosi is going to come down from the.
Laura: Ceiling. Make it more concise and kind of fix up anything. Uh, but he had Scorsese's help and Oscar Isaac looked at it too. And they were able to pull it together in that time and do an edit. So it was a helpful thing in a weird way, that COVID break. But yeah, in terms of Scorsese being executive producer, it was just a favor Schroeder just asked him, like, hey, can I put your name on?
Ryan: Yeah, sure. Yeah. Um, I would say out of the pantheon of COVID related cinema things, I don't have as much an issue with him not being able to shoot his movie than the Christopher Nolan bollocks. That came out about tenet. And he was like trying to get people to go back to the cinema, uh, in the midst of a fucking pandemic.
Laura: Yeah. And that one came out in a rough pandemic time as yeah.
Ryan: So and it was also shit.
Laura: Oh, it was so bad.
Ryan: Yeah. Tenet's also crap. Uh, and I'm not going to hear it from all you fucking Nolan fanboys either, who are like, I'm not smart enough to understand what it's like. The only thing I liked about that movie is when he fucking killed Kenneth Branagh and he tossed his fucking rubbery body off the side of the boat.
Laura: Oh, yeah.
Ryan: That was really yeah, that's the only thing I liked about that. Watched that a couple times and I fully understood what was going on in that film. It's just a shame that, uh it's fucking right. Okay. Wow. It's opposites in the mirror. It's like, fuck this fucking bollocks. I'm glad we watched it on streaming on a tiny TV. It wasn't an IMAX the way it was meant to be seen for whatever fucking reason.
Laura: The only other thing I have to say is, uh, we were talking about how Schrader kind of makes his handmade films close, intimate, smaller films on a smaller budget. He also does them in a smaller amount of time. He was saying that the films that he used to make in 40 days, he now makes in 20 days. This film was shot in 20 days total, obviously. I know. Gosh wrap this up.
Ryan: It's getting tricky out there at the window. Um, fucking nosferatu shit.
Laura: Uh, and each of the scenes was done in one to two shots, boom, done. Just due to their time constraints and their budget.
Ryan: Yeah, but I like that. That's something I've adopted as well. It's like if you can tell the scene in one shot and just develop that shot just in its entirety, I think that's the best way to go.
Laura: It's a friedkin thing, too.
Ryan: Yeah. Just don't take your time with it. Yeah, don't Fincher it don't be like, I need to do this one know? And I love David Fincher. Don't get me wrong. He's like one of my he's probably my favorite.
Laura: That's your favorite boy?
Ryan: He's my favorite boy. He always is going to be my favorite boy. I can't wait to do my favorite boy on this podcast. Yeah. Fincher. Fawn or fincher? Fincher. Madness. Fincher. Finchernance. Fincher esque. Either way.
Laura: Either way.
Ryan: Fanatics. Yeah, Fincher. Fanatics. Um, I feel like both school like Rules or School of Thoughts work that know. Boris Karloff's at the window now. Just threw that little girl into the lake and now he's over here.
Laura: Yeah, Schrader's got some good stuff coming down, so I'm pretty excited.
Laura: Is there anything else you wanted to bring up before we get hit by lightning?
Ryan: No. And if we do get hit by lightning, it just meant it was our time.
Laura: Wow. When it comes to ratings, I'll go first. This is tough. So for the film itself, I'm just going to give it four.
Ryan: Okay, well, I gave it four and a half. I opted four and a half. I like it a lot because it's so fucking unrelentingly, relentlessly dark and.
Laura: Grim.
Ryan: Okay, four and a half. You don't have to explain any more of it. That's my explanation.
Laura: Yeah, it's a good movie.
Ryan: That's what I think.
Laura: And, um, for visibility and context, it's.
Ryan: Really interested to see what you say to this because I'm going to wait.
Laura: Oh God. So bad.
Ryan: Kind of fucked up.
Laura: So you've got a visibility of five. It's very obvious because it's on screen. It is in your face. It is there and it's horrible.
Ryan: And it's sometimes in slow mo, and.
Laura: Sometimes in slow mo context is a straight zero because that's a horrible context.
Ryan: M hold on.
Laura: Okay. What do you got to say?
Ryan: Well, the thing is, if you take the context at face value, I mean, the context is accurate for what it's depicting, isn't it? Okay. Because you can't that's the argument there. Just because you don't like the context and the way it's shown doesn't mean that it's a low rating. It's because it's showing it in the form in which it's describing it. And like the detail in which it's going know, because at least the scene where it's the enacting of the Americans being tortured and put through the techniques in order to withstand interrogation is also anchored by the voiceover that Oscar Isaacs gives from his diary and refers to the bit that we're talking about as sexual humiliation. Right. So to me. I'm like, oh, they just straight up showed it. They didn't just show it as a midshot. And you just see some pants come down really quickly before you see anything. It just shows you everything. There's no messing around with it. It just shows you everything. So the context in itself would probably be higher than a zero, even though, let's be honest, it's not very nice. But at the same time, it's anchored with a level of context because it's pertaining to the actual telling of that, uh, particular aspect of the story. So the context would be quite high, I would feel.
Laura: You're not wrong. Yes. You're not wrong. Okay.
Ryan: Um no, you're taking your own emotion.
Ryan: And now my subject here's the thing. I need to put this out on Front Street. It's not that I agree with it. I'm not like, well, that's all of that. That's great. Any which way, every which way, but loose. You know what I mean? It's all over.
Laura: Well, gosh, but if you're going to say it in that way, and if you're going to explain it in that way, I feel like all context would be quite high in a weird way.
Ryan: Yeah. But there's other times where we take the context, and I also bring into the argument, I'm like, do we need to see this? Do we need to see this in this particular moment? Is it purely for the gratification factor, or does it actually help to tell the story in this case? It does help to tell the story. In other instances that we've covered in the film, let's say sideways. It was definitely a comedy dick. And it makes sense. Context is fantastic. But then there's other moments where you barely see it, like in Color of Night. You see the Willis Willie just, like, bobbing up a little bit. It's only because it's just an editing decision. We don't need to see, uh, it we understand what's happening there. We don't need to see it. And that's why it's not particularly clear. And then I'm trying to obviously wrap my brain as to, uh, contextually wise. There's another movie where you're just like, no, that doesn't make any sense. There I don't think we've actually covered anything. No. In that respect, where the context has been particularly low, it's just so that there's a different understanding as to why these things are shown and the way they're shown. Um, just because we don't like the content and the tone and the thematic concerns of why it's happening. Contextually, that shouldn't bring it down in that rating. I feel.
Laura: Okay when I think about it, and when I think about because I'm thinking about context. The context is rough. The context is upsetting.
Ryan: Yeah, but does it help to make it more rough, is what I'm saying.
Laura: Well, uh, it does help the story. Yeah, but I feel like that's a different word. Okay. Um, maybe not usability, but more, um I don't know the word I'm thinking.
Ryan: Of, but I mean, there's a way to tell it where the edges are softened a little bit. But we've already kind of put out there that Pulse Raider doesn't care. No. And he's relatively unflinching.
Laura: It makes sense for the film. We've already talked about that. And it does help, uh, uh, tell the story and visualize the situation. So in terms of that, obviously it's good. I don't even know what to give it. I'm just going to give it a three. Yeah, I'm going to give it a three.
Ryan: Um, yeah, I mean, I'll go straight down the middle and say 2.5 just so I don't look like a monster. But at the same time, I feel like that's where my argument is going.
Laura: I think I'm happy with my original rating because you can give it a one. If you want that to be the bottom, that's totally fine.
Ryan: Yeah.
Laura: It can't be zero. But the way that I look at context typically is it's horrible. You know what I mean? So it's not in a good context. And I want to separate that from whether it makes sense in the film and whether or not it adds to the film. It does. But I don't think that that should change, uh, my context, because the context is poor. It's a sad context, and it's an uncomfortable context. The visibility is still great. The context is upsetting. But that doesn't mean that it's not important, and that doesn't mean that it's not meant to be there, because that's not what I meant.
Ryan: Okay.
Laura: Yeah. Still an upsetting context.
Ryan: Yeah. That's fine.
Laura: Because when I try to explain it to people, that's always how I say, is it in a happy situation? Uh, or is it in a really upsetting situation?
Ryan: Yeah. Is a happy dick or a sad dick?
Laura: It's sad.
Ryan: It's a pretty sad dick.
Laura: So it's a sad dick.
Ryan: Contest.
Laura: Um, that's what I mean.
Ryan: Yeah. No, I get what you mean, but.
Laura: I also get what you mean because.
Ryan: I probably veered off a little bit and they're towards the end.
Laura: I like your rant because it makes sense.
Ryan: Yeah, it does. I mean, it made more sense than some of the rants I've had over the past few episodes. Um, I think giving it a little bit more of an analytical eye, I think that this is where our podcast flourishes a little bit more in that we're kind of giving it a little bit more of an analytical eye as opposed to taking everything on, uh, face value. Um, like a lot of modern films, just in general, tend to be a little bit because a little bit shallow.
Laura: And especially in the at least this.
Ryan: Film has some depth and it has some character, and it has something it's trying to say.
Laura: And if there's one thing that Schrader is good at, it's a character study. That's his bread and butter.
Ryan: Yeah, that's the bread and butter, uh, of your Paul Schrader.
Laura: Because especially nowadays when you have those stupid articles coming out saying it's the golden age of dicks in cinema still. And if you've listened to the Pam and Tommy episode, you'll know how I feel about the prosthetic boom, uh, that we're having right now.
Ryan: Silly, Willys. Just silly. And carted around costumes.
Laura: Dick costumes that are floating around. Because that isn't helping anything. That's not helping anyone's context. That's not helping level the playing field between males and females.
Ryan: No, because we live in a checklist culture, unfortunately.
Laura: So now when you have movies and shows that are coming out that are touting full frontal, you better check your sources, which I'll let you know. Because oftentimes we're dealing with, uh, a costume. And that doesn't make sense.
Ryan: Yeah, well, I feel like honestly, it does come down a fair amount to how can we shoehorn this particular thing that seems to be big in the media, or at least get us some level of coverage. How do we do that? At least with Pam and Tommy? Oh, jeez. Yeah. I was trying to think of like other well, it's mostly Bella Lugosi and Boris Karloff, who did almost every single role in those classic universal monster things as, um um but yeah, here's the um, uh, like, certainly with the HBO stuff, I feel like there's a shoehorning culture where it's kind of like, well, this is own box office. We can show everything if we want to. And it's always kind of been that way. Um, and certainly now that it's getting a lot more coverage in the media, I feel like that's the main pool. And then that's when this argument of context and whether or not certain things should be existing or should be happening. Uh, that's when I start to question it a little bit more.
Laura: Absolutely. And you're absolutely right. It's about a checklist. Like, we're not going to be popular and we're not going to get any coverage. Um, specifically.
Laura: Okay, well, I'm going to wrap this up. And I want to oh, one thing I wanted to ask you. Fuck. I'm so sorry. Would you recommend this film?
Ryan: Yeah, it's worth watching.
Laura: It's really good. Um, and as of the recording, it is streaming on HBO.
Ryan: Max yeah, because the thing is, I like when stuff like this comes out. Because I don't know about anybody else, but I'm kind of tired with the Marvel stuff. Um, all that big box office blockbuster fucking bullshit. So when stuff like this comes out this and Red Rocket came out the same year as well. And a bunch of tiny little movies. They're the things I like going to see.
Laura: It makes you remember that there are good films coming out and there's good films being made.
Ryan: And it's such a sad thing to say as well.
Laura: Hopeful for the future.
Ryan: Yeah. It just makes you sound like I fucking yeah, it makes you sound like, yeah, you know, that marvel stuff. Well, here's your character dramas. These, uh, are.
Laura: Better. They are. I also would recommend this film because it is schrader schrader thon. My boy Shrades, he does good stuff. Some stuff he's not so great. But most of it, you can find some lovely things within any of his films. And this one is great throughout. So I'd 100% recommend it. I really like this movie to watch Oscar Isaac.
Ryan: He's on a roll at the moment.
Laura: And one day we'll actually talk about Oscar Isaac being naked in scenes from a marriage. We'll save it for the episode.
Ryan: We will. Yeah. Because we'll probably need to watch the original Igmar Bergman miniseries, uh, that he did. That's what it's based. Sounds great. Yeah. No, it's good. I mean, it's Igmar Bergman, so it's going to be sad as fuck, but I mean, it's going to be what it's going to be.
Laura: Coming to you from the World Series of Poker tournament. I have been Laura with an L. Really?
Ryan: That's your ending? Cap the World Series of Poker tournaments.
Laura: Spent a lot of time in this movie coming to you from a cloth wrapped hotel room. Nice. I have been Laura with an L.
Ryan: I love that idea of the sterile work environment. Yeah. Uh, my name is Ryan. Yeah, I'd said that, right.
Laura: Nope. So thank you for doing that. And, uh, we'll catch you next time. Remember, if you guys want to know the film that's coming up next, we always reveal it the week before on our Instagram. Yes. So follow us. It's the same, uh, name as our podcast.
Ryan: Obviously, we don't know what it is yet.
Laura: I know. I'll fill you in later.
Ryan: Stay tuned.
Laura: Goodbye.